Let’s give the anti Covid vaccine people credit in saying it’s possible - we do not know for sure -that 10 to 20+ years from now that something bad will happen to the vaxxed caused by the vax. That we don’t know for sure-true. so far so good though (the conspiracy theorist will disagree with this too, because they do not work in public health, do not understand how it works, which is why practically no one in public health pays any attention to what they have to say no matter how much they shout stuff on conspiracy websites and blogs. They will claim the reason no one pays attention is due to corruption:censorship/money/“big pharma” because they do not understand the process and that’s OK).
This thread was deleted by a volunteer moderator. I certainly don't want a thread this big deleted so I've restored. THat being said, this thread has served it's purpose. I've closed it to new posts.
We have a new 2024 vaccine thread here. New people don't need to try to wade through 20,000 posts to figure out what is going on.
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Hmm... I very much remember "All you have to do is get the shot once (actually 2 across a couple of weeks, but no worries)". Was that deceit or incompetence?
Or, perhaps you are a lab-denier and still believe it came from the pangolin? lol. Probably so. In any case, I remember when some suggested that maybe the lab theory should be considered, and they were vilified for simply asking the question.
So, when the experts must get it right, how many chances do you give them? Whether it was purposeful of just rank incompetence, they SUCKED. That can not be disputed.
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Who knows how much confidence in scientists and doctors has been set back due to how poorly this was handled. If you think it hasn't taken a hit with just regular (non-conspiracy) folk, you are just the equal counterpart to the nut-jobs. Go team!
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To sum up what happened wrote:
Let’s give the anti Covid vaccine people credit in saying it’s possible - we do not know for sure -that 10 to 20+ years from now that something bad will happen to the vaxxed caused by the vax. That we don’t know for sure-true. so far so good though (the conspiracy theorist will disagree with this too, because they do not work in public health, do not understand how it works, which is why practically no one in public health pays any attention to what they have to say no matter how much they shout stuff on conspiracy websites and blogs. They will claim the reason no one pays attention is due to corruption:censorship/money/“big pharma” because they do not understand the process and that’s OK).
R U claiming that lots of people have not already been harmed by the vaccine?
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To sum up what happened wrote:
Spot On! wrote:
People also are more inclined to think that way when those with strong backgrounds in medical and public health straight up lie. So, why would they lie do you suppose?
Except they didn’t lie -only conspiracy theorists think that -and we’re not gonna get anywhere arguing it -so just believe what you wanna believe
The assertion that you get vaxxed and the virus will not infect you and you cannot transmit it was not a lie?
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Newname wrote:
To sum up what happened wrote:
Except they didn’t lie -only conspiracy theorists think that -and we’re not gonna get anywhere arguing it -so just believe what you wanna believe
The assertion that you get vaxxed and the virus will not infect you and you cannot transmit it was not a lie?
Nobody ever said that the vaccine was 100% effective. Just that it would help. And it did.
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middleagedneverwas wrote:
Newname wrote:
The assertion that you get vaxxed and the virus will not infect you and you cannot transmit it was not a lie?
Nobody ever said that the vaccine was 100% effective. Just that it would help. And it did.
Not what I said. They claimed that the jab would stop you from getting Covid. They stated it as fact. That you would not get it and would not transmit it.
Turned out to be a lie.
When it became clear the vaxxed were getting Covid they called these "rare breakthroughs". Time went by and it became clear that most, if not all, of the vaxxed were getting Covid.
At which point they changed the message to say it made the virus less serious and prevented hospitalizations and deaths. With no evidence given, of course.
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DanM wrote:
Harambe wrote:
300k+ dead Americans killed by antivaxxers. They finally admit the number is real, but now they frantically try to blame other things. (Ventilators? Berenson 2020 wants his talking points back).
They gleefully spread propaganda that killed their countrymen. Absolutely shameful and psychopathic.
The guilt and cognitive dissonance are driving some of them to bump up years old threads. Anything to distract from the blackness in their hearts.
I wish them well, as many of them have gotten (multiple) unvaxxed COVID infections that are directly associated with lifetime risks of cardiovascular incidents and autoimmunity. Yikes…
Today in the NY Times, the defeated person bitterly ranting is Saint Fauci himself.
Oh, how the mighty have fallen.
ml300k dead Americans and you spend more time thinking about Fauci than your wife+kids.
Where did it go wrong?
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Newname wrote:
middleagedneverwas wrote:
Nobody ever said that the vaccine was 100% effective. Just that it would help. And it did.
Not what I said. They claimed that the jab would stop you from getting Covid. They stated it as fact. That you would not get it and would not transmit it.
Turned out to be a lie.
When it became clear the vaxxed were getting Covid they called these "rare breakthroughs". Time went by and it became clear that most, if not all, of the vaxxed were getting Covid.
At which point they changed the message to say it made the virus less serious and prevented hospitalizations and deaths. With no evidence given, of course.
Variants – that were cultivated in unvaxxed people – lead to changing efficacy of the vaccine.
It's quite simple.
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Newname wrote:
middleagedneverwas wrote:
Nobody ever said that the vaccine was 100% effective. Just that it would help. And it did.
Not what I said. They claimed that the jab would stop you from getting Covid. They stated it as fact. That you would not get it and would not transmit it.
Turned out to be a lie.
When it became clear the vaxxed were getting Covid they called these "rare breakthroughs". Time went by and it became clear that most, if not all, of the vaxxed were getting Covid.
At which point they changed the message to say it made the virus less serious and prevented hospitalizations and deaths. With no evidence given, of course.
I understand you have very reduced neuroplasticity but something can be true at one point in time and not true later. It’s not a religion.
The original trial was for PCR positive COVID test. The vaccines were 90%+ effect at preventing that.
Mutations to the spike protein in variants caused the antibody efficacy to drastically weaken and no longer prevent infection.
Was this is a predictable outcome? In hindsight sure, but people really didn’t believe COVID wasn’t going to mutate as quickly as it did.Nevertheless there is overwhelming evidence that vaccinated people have less severe disease even when they contract novel variants - thanks to T cell immunity!
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Harambe wrote:
Newname wrote:
Not what I said. They claimed that the jab would stop you from getting Covid. They stated it as fact. That you would not get it and would not transmit it.
Turned out to be a lie.
When it became clear the vaxxed were getting Covid they called these "rare breakthroughs". Time went by and it became clear that most, if not all, of the vaxxed were getting Covid.
At which point they changed the message to say it made the virus less serious and prevented hospitalizations and deaths. With no evidence given, of course.
Variants – that were cultivated in unvaxxed people – lead to changing efficacy of the vaccine.
It's quite simple.
Evidence ?
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2600 bro wrote:
I understand you have very reduced neuroplasticity but something can be true at one point in time and not true later. It’s not a religion.
Ah - That clearly explains the It-came-from-a-pangolin-and-if-you-question-it-you're-a-conspiracy-theorist debacle that won over so much trust from everybody, like Jon Stewart. Thanks for the great explanation.
When the "experts" needed to be right and trustworthy, they simply failed.
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Spot On! wrote:
2600 bro wrote:
I understand you have very reduced neuroplasticity but something can be true at one point in time and not true later. It’s not a religion.
Ah - That clearly explains the It-came-from-a-pangolin-and-if-you-question-it-you're-a-conspiracy-theorist debacle that won over so much trust from everybody, like Jon Stewart. Thanks for the great explanation.
When the "experts" needed to be right and trustworthy, they simply failed.
Seems like it’s a coin flip: lab leak or zoonotic transmission.
Messaging from experts was indeed very poor for a long time - although idc really about origins.
Were lucky this was a “kill 1 million older Americans” virus and not a “kill 1 million young Americans” akin to Spanish Flu.
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Spot On! wrote:
Who knows how much confidence in scientists and doctors has been set back due to how poorly this was handled. If you think it hasn't taken a hit with just regular (non-conspiracy) folk, you are just the equal counterpart to the nut-jobs. Go team!
it’s taken a huge it-For sure! One thing we can agree on! :) Perhaps it’s why only 17% of USA adults have received the bivalent booster. Why bother right?
with tons of Americans confused by inconsistencies in public messaging, crazies started getting huge followings on YouTube and blogs.
The messaging to general public was a clusterF to say the least.42 -
Wrong about the mutations. We knew exactly that it would mutate quickly and we knew that this was extremely common place for coronaviruses. Politicians and corporations simply didn’t want to deal with the facts. No hindsight necessary.
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Newname wrote:
middleagedneverwas wrote:
Nobody ever said that the vaccine was 100% effective. Just that it would help. And it did.
Not what I said. They claimed that the jab would stop you from getting Covid. They stated it as fact. That you would not get it and would not transmit it.
Turned out to be a lie.
When it became clear the vaxxed were getting Covid they called these "rare breakthroughs". Time went by and it became clear that most, if not all, of the vaxxed were getting Covid.
At which point they changed the message to say it made the virus less serious and prevented hospitalizations and deaths. With no evidence given, of course.
This is from the Cleveland Clinic. ‘They’ said no such thing. They also included a link in their post to apps that make reporting side effects easier for their patients.
8/11/2021
Yes, you can still transmit COVID-19 to others even if you are vaccinated
”even after the two doses, it gives you about an 85% to 95% level of protection. Although you may be protected we can’t tell if you are still at risk of being an asymptomatic carrier and have the ability to carry the virus and spread the virus to others. So you can’t assume that just because you get the vaccine that you are both protected and no longer capable of carrying the virus asymptomatically and spreading it to others”
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted. Reason provided: Added context.31 -
PCRF-Guy wrote:
Newname wrote:
Not what I said. They claimed that the jab would stop you from getting Covid. They stated it as fact. That you would not get it and would not transmit it.
Turned out to be a lie.
When it became clear the vaxxed were getting Covid they called these "rare breakthroughs". Time went by and it became clear that most, if not all, of the vaxxed were getting Covid.
At which point they changed the message to say it made the virus less serious and prevented hospitalizations and deaths. With no evidence given, of course.
This is from the Cleveland Clinic. ‘They’ said no such thing. They also included a link in their post to apps that make reporting side effects easier for their patients.
8/11/2021
Yes, you can still transmit COVID-19 to others even if you are vaccinated
”even after the two doses, it gives you about an 85% to 95% level of protection. Although you may be protected we can’t tell if you are still at risk of being an asymptomatic carrier and have the ability to carry the virus and spread the virus to others. So you can’t assume that just because you get the vaccine that you are both protected and no longer capable of carrying the virus asymptomatically and spreading it to others”
Cleveland Clinic said this in June, 2021. They were falling all over themselves trying to pull back this story the very next day. I wonder who they heard from and what message was communicated to them.
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Newname wrote:
Not what I said. They claimed that the jab would stop you from getting Covid. They stated it as fact. That you would not get it and would not transmit it.
Turned out to be a lie.
When it became clear the vaxxed were getting Covid they called these "rare breakthroughs". Time went by and it became clear that most, if not all, of the vaxxed were getting Covid.
At which point they changed the message to say it made the virus less serious and prevented hospitalizations and deaths. With no evidence given, of course.
I think your timeline is off. The messaging from medical doctors I spoke with when the vaccines came out (approx Dec 2020-Feb2021)was that we do not yet know for sure how well they block transmission- they’re (the world infectious disease experts) still trying to figure that out. These medical doctors got the vaccine in December 2020. It seemed clear to them (and everyone in public health pretty much) from the NEJM studies with zero deaths in the treatment group that these things are awesome at preventing hospitalization and deaths - the most important thing during a public health emergency…But the media messages to general public may have been vague and put out there just in an effort to just get as many vaccinated as possible …and prevent deaths… without a full understanding of what percentage of population we would need to get vaccinated
With the way this thing was handled, public trust is a huge problem
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DanM wrote:
PCRF-Guy wrote:
This is from the Cleveland Clinic. ‘They’ said no such thing. They also included a link in their post to apps that make reporting side effects easier for their patients.
8/11/2021
Yes, you can still transmit COVID-19 to others even if you are vaccinated
”even after the two doses, it gives you about an 85% to 95% level of protection. Although you may be protected we can’t tell if you are still at risk of being an asymptomatic carrier and have the ability to carry the virus and spread the virus to others. So you can’t assume that just because you get the vaccine that you are both protected and no longer capable of carrying the virus asymptomatically and spreading it to others”
Cleveland Clinic said this in June, 2021. They were falling all over themselves trying to pull back this story the very next day. I wonder who they heard from and what message was communicated to them.
1) Initial studies that showed the vaccines prevented transmission very well were LYING because a year later the evidence and situations changed.
2) Initial studies that said infection driven immunity was as good as a vaccination were RIGHT and the consensus changing a year later with new evidence and viral variants was a LIE
Make sense. I see the theme. You and carmine9 simply don’t believe things can change. Must be very hard to make sense of life.
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Crispr wrote:
Wrong about the mutations. We knew exactly that it would mutate quickly and we knew that this was extremely common place for coronaviruses. Politicians and corporations simply didn’t want to deal with the facts. No hindsight necessary.
Sure, OK, explain why it took 18 months of widespread transmission for the first immune-evasive variant to emerge (Delta).
Nobody really understood how the mutations would affect immunity (from infection but especially vaccination) and certainly the mitigation of transmission against early strains was very strong. There were no lies told.
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