50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

When I read the negative split discussion I can’t help but paraphrase the Jack Daniels’ advice “run the first two-thirds with your head and the last third with you heart.”

If you create an oxygen debt early in the race you are not going to replace it anytime soon.

Igy

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

When I read the negative split discussion I can’t help but paraphrase the Jack Daniels’ advice “run the first two-thirds with your head and the last third with you heart.”

If you create an oxygen debt early in the race you are not going to replace it anytime soon.

Igy

There is no such thing as oxygen debt.

Call it whatever you want. I have been at this longer than the glint in your father’s eye.

Hey everyone,

Hope you are all doing well. Been here running a couple of miles a day and biking about 30. Had low iron for a while and fel like crap but got better.

Haven't been training for anything other then not get fat (sort of succesful there)

Anyways Michelle and I are going to be in Spokane. She is running the 800 and 1500. I'll be working out.

So I hope maybe I'll see some of you that I might know out there.

Michelle is in good shape and looks good running. Should be fun to watch!

Ok well have a great week.

Mike

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Coach Shane wrote:

I thought you might have had a more technical explanation. Yours is equivalent to saying the secret to success is to run faster.

Yes and run more.

Seriously for a 60 year old masters runner it may be easier to hurdle the water jump than to step. Just an idea nothing more. And of course it works.

Igy

First let me say that to “run more” is not always good advice and should not be recommended without knowing a lot more about someone.

Second, hurdling the water jump barrier will inevitably slow the runner down. There are so many issues with that strategy, not the least of which is running out of deeper water and losing the push off advantage from an elevated barrier.

I offer the following as a primer in steeplechase for you and others that may be interested.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Coach Shane wrote:

I thought you might have had a more technical explanation. Yours is equivalent to saying the secret to success is to run faster.

Yes and run more.

Seriously for a 60 year old masters runner it may be easier to hurdle the water jump than to step. Just an idea nothing more. And of course it works.

Igy

C'mon man...that's not the best advice for some of us old stiffs who are plagued with chronic injuries. You almost sound like the weird guy I was debating with on the "Why does marathon participation and performance plunge from age 59 to 60?" thread, who thinks that not running hard & more for old people is a mental barrier. Lol.

☝️Age-related musculoskeletal and joint degeneration starts developing with most athletes after age 50. Those with good genetics who haven't beaten the crap out of themselves in their younger years will have less wear & tear and might fare better in their older years.

I would love to run more but I can't with the arthritis I have (ankle & hip) and several other chronic injuries. I workout 7 days a week but can only run for 3, and many times those are survival runs where I end up with ice bags & Tylenol afterwards. There are also guys in the Master club I belong to who are in their 60s & 70s and even built like distance runners, but also have a history of chronic injuries. They find themselves not able to run for several months out of the year no matter what they do (cross training, strenght training, yoga, etc.).

The genetics with older runners who are seldom injured and able to train consistently is unbelievable. I'm seeing some guys train & race like they're are 25 yr old elites. Some guys in my club actually get faster with each passing year in their middle-age...incredible!

So yes, for the genetically gifted older runners, "run more" is probably great advice. Their bodies can withstand the impact forces of running and respond favorably to the stimulus of training without being injured all of the time. But for some of us old, broken down, disabled runners, "run more" is unequivocally the WORST advice you can give to anyone!

Coach,

I agree with your post and good one at that. You will have to excuse my veiled humor. That said, I still believe that hurdling the water barrier may be a viable option and easier to execute than stepping. I believe it should be considered for masters athletes afraid of slipping or afraid of the landing shock of executing the standard technique. As you noted these things should be tailored to the athlete.

Igy

Stiff,

You are correct “running more” can be bad advice for someone in their 50s and 60s. However, optimally training should be specific to the event. If you can tolerate a higher degree of volume and intensity of running specific training you should lean that direction. You are what you train to be.

Igy

I love watching the steeple, and not just to see someone fall, but the techniques used, how some pace themselves between each, and just race a darned difficult event (I consider it the toughest of all track events by far). With my ability to have a stride length of less than 30 inches and a vertical jump of about 3, it's the LAST event I'd do, even if threatened! Of course, I cannot dance either :)

Did get in a 10 miler Sunday, the beginning of my long runs to get ready for the Des Moines 1/2 marathon mid-October, in 1:46 on a warm, humid day. Hope to build up to a couple of over-distance long runs prior to it. Been too warm to run speedwork, but do need to start something soon, even just a 4 x 400 to start.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Call it whatever you want. I have been at this longer than the glint in your father’s eye.

The glint left my father’s eye years ago when he passed, jerk.

Aerobic monster wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Call it whatever you want. I have been at this longer than the glint in your father’s eye.

The glint left my father’s eye years ago when he passed, jerk.

My condolences on your loss and the insensitive treatment you have received.

Here’s a great song that might help heal those wounds while fondly recalling your father.

RF reader wrote:

I guess I don't have much to contribute to the "negative split" discussion because other than marathons, I almost always run negative split. My problem is the opposite. I cannot start a 5k race fast enough, and it takes me too long to get into a decent pace. I do most runs in progression, even on easy days. So that might be the reason.

This discussion has helped me see I've been deluding myself on this very point. Yes, I'm slow compared with a 24-year-old miler, but those splits make clear that I'm perfectly capable of "starting a 5K race fast enough"! So on Saturday, this 5:52 pace runner is going to do the first 2 miles at 6:05 -- the extra 10 seconds a concession to the heat -- and then see what I got left in the tank.

What exactly is the advantage of negative splitting? Is there a physiological advantage or is it just tactical, if that?

Syracuse wrote:

What exactly is the advantage of negative splitting? Is there a physiological advantage or is it just tactical, if that?

A lot of that stuff is for the young bucks or the older cats that are into performance over participation. This old stiff is almost 60 yrs of age and with more chronic injuries than Carter has pills, I don't think I could finish a race to negative split it. Lol. Oh...wait a minute; last year I did one of our Master club 5ks and I walked/jogged the first half and jogged the entire 2nd half, so I did negative split the race. ?

Past weeks training:

15 8 miler easy-med out and medium back. Was planning on running easy but ran late and had to finish before dark. Felt great!

16 8 easy fb a little barrier work

17 AM 3x400 w/100 jog avg 80.2, 400 jog, 3x400 w/200 jog avg 78, 400 jog, 3x400 w/300 jog 73.9-75.5-72.1 73.8 avg. (wt 121) PM 4 easy

18 12 easy

19 DNR

20 25 minute tempo on the track. Too windy to worry about splits. A bit of Hurdle work later

21 8 miles easy

53 total miles

Coming up this week for me is the masters outdoors nationals. I have difficulty with the last 7-10 days before a big meet. I don't like tapering though I do so to feel fresh for the races. In this case I am racing three times out of four days. So I need to be fresh. Normally when I race the outdoor track champs I run the 5 and 10 k. This time around I am still doing the 5k, but also the steeple (brand new for me) and the 1500. I am steping way down to run the 1500. I guess I like a challenge. I have been able to run all the workouts that I have planned so am ready to roll.

Syracuse wrote:

A lot of that stuff is for the young bucks or the older cats that are into performance over participation. This old stiff is almost 60 yrs of age and with more chronic injuries than Carter has pills

+1 for the Carter's pills reference! Yeah, I fully appreciate my good fortune.

So, on a hot flat boring-ass parking lot course today, my 5K splits were 6:06+6:02+6:10(+5:58), much better. Garmin had my last half mile at 2:55 and I still had a little in the tank. But there was only one kid to catch and once I did that I eased up.

Anyway, four seconds between miles 1 and 3 is much better than the :15 to :40 I was clocking this year. It was a nice experiment and I thank everyone who contributed insights.

KCgeezer wrote:

... my 5K splits were 6:06+6:02+6:10(+5:58), much better. Garmin had my last half mile at 2:55 and I still had a little in the tank. But there was only one kid to catch and once I did that I eased up.

Nicely done. And an overall win for you? Congratulations! My next 5K is at the end of August, and I hope to match your time -- sub-19, right?! I am looking forward to the 5K more than my "goal race" 15K. The 15K is two weeks from now, and I'm not feeling too confident at the longer distance ...

What's next on your race calendar?

I'm not building toward a target race like you are, Allen. I'd like to get under 18 at my next serious fall race. Till then, build muscle, lose weight, enjoy Quebec, and train for a 5K on Sept. 30.

Kind of interesting -- I did 3/3 breathing, which I associate with tempo running, until the 2-mile marker when I accelerated. I'm not sure what that means, if I'm getting fitter or what. Surely it doesn't mean I started too slowly!

Aerobic monster wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Call it whatever you want. I have been at this longer than the glint in your father’s eye.

The glint left my father’s eye years ago when he passed, jerk.

Please don’t judge everyone on this thread by the actions of one. That same poster was hostile toward me when I first posted here, but I simply ignored him. You should too.

There are many good people here. Please take advantage of what those people have to offer. Best.