50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Can't Believe What I'm Hearing wrote:

I coached my my son throughout HS and his mile PB was only 4:46 at age 18. This is powerful young man who trained his butt off and he barely beat the time of a 59 year old?

What is up with this - a 59 year old running a 4:26 1500!?!

Well, if that isn't a world record for age 59, it is very close. Compare any locally competitive runner's times to the world record, and there is a huge disparity. A 2:30 marathon is impressive, but that would be, what, maybe SIX MILES behind a world class marathoner?!

What I find more astounding is just how much our performances deteriorate as we age. Really, 4:26 isn't very fast in absolute terms. I was a 17-year-old kid who couldn't even qualify for the "Sectional" meet in high school, but ran 4:30 for 1500 and a 4:45mile. About the same as your son.

The fact that 4:30 would be world class at my age is insane.

At 58, I don't feel much different. I don't really even look much different -- maybe five pounds heavier, but my legs look the same. It seems crazy that I can't move them even as quickly as my goofy 17-year-old self.

I was barely under 5:40 for a mile recently. Frustrating as heck when I think about the actual pace, rather than age-grade figures. I have heard some older folks claim, "I still feel like I am running as fast," but not me. The effort, yes, but underfoot, the ground moves so slowly!

Anyway, it's all relative. It's still fun to set goals and see what's possible.

4:24.8 for the mile at 51??? That's even scarier than the 59 year old.

whatever man wrote:

I coach Tom LeGan who had a nice one mile road race in Los Gatos. The course drops 16 meters so about five seconds off. He comes up to Berkeley to do speed work with the club at least once a week and has been since last summer. He lives all the way down in Gilroy and works in Mountain View and turns 52 in about a week.

http://rtspt.com/events/misc/bang18/open_men.html

If anyone is interested he'll run an 800 this Thursday at Los Gatos, the Morgan Hill 5K on July 4th, and the One Mile event at the Tamalpa track meet on July 17th.

Nolan Shaheed set the age 60 record of 4:24. He is my age now (68). I first became aware of him about 20 years ago when my son started running in college and was about a 4:00 1500M runner. My son ran a couple of invitational meets where there was this guy (Shaheed), in his mid 40s, who was running competitive times with some of the college kids. Shaheed has slowed down a bit in recent years. I see he ran 5:23 for the mile last year, which would be about 5:02 for a 1500. Now doubt a lot of it has to do with winning the genetic lottery and then taking care of yourself as the years go by.

Do these guys have families? Kids? Are they Grandpas? For single guys it is easy(er) to stay race fit.

I have found just carrying kids is the number one reason why we slow as we age. Just not enough time to recover (not train --- recovery with kids is tough)

Pacific Heights wrote:

4:24.8 for the mile at 51??? That's even scarier than the 59 year old.

On the age-grade charts, I think the 59-year-old's time scores higher. What is scarier, then, is the accelerating rate of decline through the 50s, I would say.

Allen1959 wrote:

Well, if that isn't a world record for age 59, it is very close. Compare any locally competitive runner's times to the world record, and there is a huge disparity. A 2:30 marathon is impressive, but that would be, what, maybe SIX MILES behind a world class marathoner?!

His age-graded time is a stunning "3:30" - faster than Centro & Webb's PBs!

So, did this guy run 3:30'ish or so in his prime and this would be the natural progression of his age-related slowdown? Or did this dude just explode in his late-50s with this crazy, insane time? ?

Anselm Le Bourne has been around for a long time. He has been great since his 40s like 95+ age graded.

However I can not find the 4:26 he did run a 2:07 in Feb nada shows up after 2015 until the 2:07 this year.

https://www.mastersrankings.com/athlete-profile/?x8=USA32470350ANSELMLEBOURNE

The aging process accelerates as do the passing days, a true double whammy.

Let's Get To The Bottom Of This wrote:

His age-graded time is a stunning "3:30" - faster than Centro & Webb's PBs!

So, did this guy run 3:30'ish or so in his prime and this would be the natural progression of his age-related slowdown? Or did this dude just explode in his late-50s with this crazy, insane time? ?

Maybe someone will share a bit of this man's history. Would be interesting to know.

What the 98% age grade tells me is that he has run 1500 meters as fast or nearly as fast as any 59-year-old has ever run.

The "3:30 equivalent" is saying his time relative to the age-59 world record is like a 3:30 compared to the Open world record. As increasing numbers of people continue to compete into old age, I suspect today's age-graded times will recalculate somewhat slower.

My own age-graded performances are quite a bit "faster" than my open PRs from my 20s. Which I suspect is more a function of relatively soft old-man single-age records at present, rather than any "improvement" on my part.

Or maybe the way the numbers are calculated is too simplistic.

He is from Trinidad Tobago. Went to college in the US. Best 800 was a 1.49.

Dropped off with work and kids and got a bit heavy so returned to running.

Ran 1.53 and 3.54 at 40-44.

1.56 and 4.02 at 45-49.

1.59 and 4.10 at 50-54 also 54.2 400m. Oldest man to break 2.00 at 52 years.

2.01 and a 4.37 mile in the 55-59 age group.

He is 1.73 m tall and a low fat muscular 68 kg.

His training is low volume. Rarely runs much over 10 kms in training. Lots of short fast rep work and drills.

Charlie wrote:

Anselm Le Bourne has been around for a long time. He has been great since his 40s like 95+ age graded.

Thanks, Charlie. I didn't see your post before adding my two cents.

Icahn Stadium.

1st C. Mann UNA 4.24.38

2d. G. O'Hara CPTC 4.26.23

3d. A.LEBOURNE GSTC 4.26.32.

Thanks mo'pak!

This was his session on 31 st May.

5 x 200 metres with 90 sec. recoveries.

31 to 32 secs.

6 min. break.

4 x 300 metres with 90 sec. recoveries.

49 to 51 secs.

7 min. break.

2 x 400 metres with 2 minutes recovery.

66 secs.

6 min. break.

3 x 100 metres with 100 metres jog recoveries.

14.6 15.3 14.2.

mo'pak wrote:

This was his session on 31 st May.

5 x 200 metres with 90 sec. recoveries.

31 to 32 secs.

6 min. break.

4 x 300 metres with 90 sec. recoveries.

49 to 51 secs.

7 min. break.

2 x 400 metres with 2 minutes recovery.

66 secs.

6 min. break.

3 x 100 metres with 100 metres jog recoveries.

14.6 15.3 14.2.

A lot of neural muscular stimulation and that is what I need for sure.

Great info maybe something like this once a week to work on basic speed:

4 x 100 20 down to 17 R 90 secs walk

10 minute walk

2x200 39 or so R 90 secs walk

walk 10 minutes

1 x 400 80 secs R 4 minutes walk

2x 100 16 to 18 100 jog

Focusing on the specifics of the workouts does not yield new information that we, as masters, can take away and actually use. I mean, seriously, multitudinous speed workouts of every flavor have been around for 50 years. Heck, I still have my exact workouts from High School that yielded a 4:31 mile at age 17. But I would be an idiot if I tried to do even a fraction of that now.

The actual workout is only one dimension of a multidimensional approach. Anselm and Nolan have very specific diets, and, in Anselm’s case, his weight work is really important. The methodology, approach, frequency, periodicity, and a hundred other factors help explain why it works for them.

I’m just urging an abundance of caution before anyone tries to duplicate these workouts. And like Charlie says, maybe…maybe once a week a version of those workouts that is realistic for whatever particular level of degradation we have fallen to….

Was it 63 asking about thoughts on peaking the other day? I can't find to post but saw it, but was busy at the time. Anyway, I periodize with a couple peak racing periods in a year, and will do a full taper for marathons. However, for the most part getting to an actual peak and having a big performance, well that seem elusive. I tend to do as well or better by just cutting back a few days and making sure I get an adequate recovery for 10K and up, and then ramp it up again for a few weeks until the next race. Overall my training is very aerobic, and any speed I do is in the form of pick ups or fartlek.

As far as this latter discussion on the amazing middle distance performances by Le Bourne et al., I have definitely lost speed over the past 12-15 years (mile a good 15-20 seconds slower than in mid-late 40s) but have maintained endurance (times) at distances such as the half marathon and 10 mile. That's probably partly the way I train, and partly pure thoughts and clean living!

Coyote Montane wrote:

I periodize with a couple peak racing periods in a year, and will do a full taper for marathons. However, for the most part getting to an actual peak and having a big performance, well that seem elusive. I tend to do as well or better by just cutting back a few days and making sure I get an adequate recovery for 10K and up, and then ramp it up again for a few weeks until the next race.

I raced only five times last year. My target races were a spring half-marathon and autumn full marathon.

But my two best performances came during the training periods - a 5K four weeks before the half, and a 15K seven weeks before the marathon. They were meant more as fitness gauges, but in both cases I ran much faster than I had anticipated. I did back off my mileage a bit, tapering for a few days for both those races.

It could be that I didn't optimally periodize my training. Or that I perform better in "lesser stress" situations.

Most likely, however, I simply race better at shorter distances.

Haven't checked in for a while but theres really not much to report. Heel seemed to be better in April and into May, then it seemed to plateau and now it really doesn't feel much better than it did when I stopped running April 5. I'm just really getting tired of years (four now) of icing, night boot, drills...blah, blah, blah... So I'm pretty much just back to walking. Around 30 miles/week at a brisk'ish 13:30-14:00 pace. I think I need to stop the little running I was doing (2-3 days/wk) as it seemed to really aggravate the heel. And keeping up planking everyday. Is kind of a cool challenge to see long I can hold it. Up to 3:30! Another positive is I haven't gained any weight. I've been a consistent 163-164 (6'2") now...about 4 lbs less than April 5. Though I like to be 165-166. I'm sure I'm the leanest construction worker out there!

The posts about the Masters Milers is encouraging but the talk about the decline of Masters runners is saddening. My demise has been well documented on this thread! If you haven't seen it yet, the cliff is real and its looming. I literally went from the top of the 55-59 running world to just walking in 3 short years. I was actually in pretty decent shape last year with my 4:57 mile...even went about 6:00 pace for a 10k in March. Seems like a lifetime ago as anything remotely close to that may never happen again. But I knew this was coming after hobbling for 4 years.

Have a good week,

Dave

Well the 1500 M60 is looking good for me to break 5....gotta love the internet;)

Stephen 4:52.34

Brian 4:54.72

David 4:58.20

Michael 5:02.31

Thomas 5:05.00

Steve 5:07.00

Richard 5:14.00

Gary 5:26.00

Rodney 5:40.60

Patrick NT

Charlie NT