Genetics or Training???

Ronb had this to say on another chatline to my post above:

Ajuksnerrad

your rant will never end, because you keep wanting to twist what others have said.....that's not okay, in my opinion.

at least you're using your real name and sticking to it.....that's good.....I hate to debate 4 or 5 people, while knowing it's just your multiple personalities presenting, or whatever....

Fear and Ignorance!!! Wow, strong words!!! Why don't you just say what you mean, Darren..... I didn't know my opinions were based on Fear and Ignorance.......thanks for sharing.....

By the way, I don't think it was Ron Clarke's goal to state opinions that you would agree with ......knowing him well, he probably just wanted to tell his truth, based on what he thought he might know about World Level Distance Running......obviously he was wrong, because you don't agree with him......I'm somehow sad that an individual who was capable of setting a couple of dozen World Records, and knew all the training/racing situations in the World that go along with those achievements, has not

earned your respect, at least in the ability to disagree respectfully.....

Sad for all the people you influence.....

He obviously learned through doing, what most of the rest of us just talk about or dream about or wish we could do or have done.....

........................................................

My response:

Preamble:

I do not want to stink up a very local chatline, and that's one reason that this is here. Another reason is that ronb, The Great Big Coach In The Sky And A Leader Of Our Running Community has a very nasty habit of insulting me on local chatlines (about 4 times over the last month, I'm beginning to lose count, at pacific athletics and prairie inn harriers). I've been called names, and accused of things that were very, VERY far from reality. ("you have chosen to politicize....very ridiculous and insulting, clean up your act" in late June at PIH....completely undeserved Ron), "dork" recently, and now the above. I am a well known runner and coach in my local community. The attacks from ronb do present some obvious difficulties for me, and moving them to letsrun "levels the playing field" somewhat. A wider audience, unencumbered by local history, can view and participate. The 6 pages of generally good discussion thus far prove this point for me. I want to point out that despite the undeserved insults from ronb, I have not sunk to his level. I have tried to argue intelligently and politely.

Response to the above from ronb:

I do not twist what others say. That's not MY style, ronb.

For example, Fear And Ignorance was not directed at you. Others here and elsewhere talk of barriers, stigmas, stereotypes. These are general discussions, and reacting that way to my previous post shows a lot of self consciousness imho.

Ron Clarke's running achievements are legendary, and I greatly respect what he did on the track. However, I also have a right to greatly criticize what I see as small mindedness. IMHO (and I'm entitled to my opinion), his truth, as evidenced by MANY things he has said, is not THE truth, and it must be pointed out. If his truth happens to be YOUR truth, then so be it.

Speaking of disagreeing respectfully (hahahaha think about that Ron), the worst thing that Ron Clarke mentioned was "they can't believe this great big white guy is keeping up with them". I have a feeling that many Africans do not think in that prejudicial way. They see a great runner, not some White Guy. I base this on all of the enlightening discussions I have had with Africans as I trotted the globe many times.

Your previous post spoke of "what have my athletes done"? A well known athlete that I coached, who saw that without my prompting, was really quite shocked that you would ask that.

You started this discussion (and called me a dork for my views in the process), and here we are at page 6. Shouldn't you be excited about that? I think this is a very good thread, for the most part. I hope that rather than continuing your insults, we can carry on an intelligent discussion about an important topic. Some people on this thread await further clarifications from you, and I am eager to read about that.

Cheers

Skuj

Ajuksnerrad....that's my name backwards, Ronb. 4 or 5 people? NO!!!

Dear Sir....( or ma'am)

Not sure who you are being tonight.....it's all fine.....skuj, bimbo, guest, stereotypical bimbo, ajuksnerrad.....no problem....You can all line up against my opinion....it scares me a little that you're a Military Man....however....(god bless Smokey Smith!!!)

You do not have the right, IMHO, to come in and say "Ron Clarke does not get it"......you absolutely have the right to come in and disagree and debate your point, but it is wrong, wrong, wrong to think that somehow you have "All knowledge", and somehow Clarke has none, when discussing World Level distance running.....How the hell did that happen????

1) Of course, Ron Clarke is not perfect....no-one is, and no-one has all the answers.

2) Clarke was a good friend and huge admirer of Gammoudhi....in fact he told me that Gammoudhi was one of the best distance runners ever, and he even named one of his favourite workouts after Gammoudhi, who he first did the workout with......as a slight aside, the workout was repeats of 3000 metres on the track, with the first 1000 metres relatively easy, then a moderate 1000 metres, then a fast to all-out 1000 metres....I'm not sure how many of these, or with what recovery, but Clarke called these "Gammoudhis", because of how tough they were for Clarke, and how he said Gammoudhi could do these "on his ear"......(Aussie slang for how well he ran these).

3) When Clarke said "not many Africans have swimming pools", he was absolutely correct and honest.....

Many times in discussion/debate with Swimming Coaches,

University Administrators, Provincial Administrators, National Sport Administrators (Sport Canada in particular),

I used the exact same line......To help you understand, the point is that being in the top 10 or 20 or 30 in the World in Running is really, really different than being in the top 10 or 20 or 30 in the World in Swimming....That's the point that Clarke was trying to make, and the same point I was trying to make.....do you get it now????

Enough,

Take Care, Skuj

I admire and appreciate your contribution to our Sport...

I'll use my real name, Ron Bowker.

Ronb, what did you say about a certain coach that I really admire on the 5000m thread ? THINK!!! What is the difference between that and my comments about Clarke's points of view? Read the 5000m thread if your memory is foggy.

How did it happen? I googled Clarke! I googled the great man, looking for wisdom, and you don't know how unhappy I was to find his recent points of view about everything from drug use to race. I'm nearly as upset about this as you are.

Coe was a hero of mine. But some of his recent behaviours have made me cry. It's life, Ron.

You ended with:

Enough,

Take Care, Skuj

I admire and appreciate your contribution to our Sport...

Do you mean that Ron? Because despite all this, I wanna sit with you, drink a lot of alcohol, shout for a while, then hug!!! :)

bOTH OF YOU.

aND SOMEONE DEFINE GENETICS. qUICKLY.

I will shut up after this post....

Genetic Code - the order in which the 4 DNA bases are arranged in 64 different triplets to direct the order sequence of the 20 different amino acids in the proteins that determine inherited traits.

Genetics - the science of heredity, dealing with resemblances and differences of related organisms resulting from the interaction of their genes and the environment.

or 2. the genetic properties and phenomena of an organism.

Those are the working definitions I have been using, however they may be somewhat dated.

Could geneticists ever demonstrate convincingly that Kenyans are genetically superior? Of course! They would simply have to identify the genes which are important for endurance performance and show that those genes are more prevalent in Kenyan runners..

This can't be done at present. We simply don't know which genes are critical for enhancing performance, so we can't measure their frequencies in Kenyans, Americans, Slovenians, Siberians, or anyone else. Identification of such genes will probably happen, but not for another five to 10 years at least..

In the meantime, we might try to look at genetic differences indirectly - by examining physiological differences between Kenyans and non-Kenyans and then making inferences about genetics. For example, we might compare Kenyan and American five-year-olds, before either group has had a chance to do any training (even a smattering of training might make one group look better than the other). If we found no physiological differences, it would appear that the Kenyans did not enjoy an inherent genetic advantage..

However, even if the Kenyans were fitter, it would be hard to argue convincingly that the difference was genetic. After all, the Kenyan kids would probably eat differently than the Americans (fruits and vegetables versus Snickers bars), their everyday activity patterns would be different (Kenyans would gather wood and haul water while Americans would watch the box), and many of the Kenyan youngsters would probably be residing at altitude. All of these factors - diet, habitual activity and altitude residence - can have a strong impact on physiology, so the Kenyan kids' edge might have nothing to do with genetics..

Clarke's argument was seriously flawed. Britons held the world records at 800m and 1500m for many years, despite coming up against athletes who were born at altitude. EPO is a huge problem for the sport, and I would hate to think that we would open the door to it. El Guerrouj is from Morocco, but he wasn't born at altitude, and Nourredine Morceli was born in Algeria. In the longer events there are plenty of Europeans who have run fast. Sure, the African dominance is plain to see, but it would be wrong to automatically assume that Europeans couldn't beat them. Ron Clarke in his career broke barriers that people previously never thought possible. Although it will be difficult for Europeans or athletes not born at altitude in the future, there is no reason why middle and long distance world records cannot be broken by athletes from anywhere in the world. The war on doping in athletics is beginning to be won. EPO is a huge problem for the sport, and I would hate to think that we would open the door to it. We're only just beginning to see the effects of EPO testing beginning to bite. They have two decent tests for EPO now, and as long as those tests are imposed regularly and stringently, we'll see the distance events run in more sensible times. People will always try to cheat, to use the new best thing. You're never going to stop that. The sport just has to be more open to letting the tests take place, and then impose the sanctions if athletes are guilty.

As long as E Africa has good coaching and incentives to run fast while the West has cars to ferry them to and fro and video games to pass the day (not to mention other, more lucrative sports to attract top athletes) the balance will not shift.

I wonder if many people noticed some of the changes that I saw during these championships. The men's 400 metres final had a very different complexion to what I saw during my competitive days.

Jeremy Wariner and Andrew Rock, the gold and silver medallists respectively, are white Americans. I'm not sure of Tyler Christopher's racial background, but I am sure that he is not totally of African heritage. Add Tim Benjamin to that group and at least half of the field was not of the traditional African heritage that you normally see in a 400m final. In the past you had Roger Black or Thomas Shoenlebe, of Germany, who both ran very fast and won medals at major championships, but this championship was different with two white men grabbing the top medals, while Christopher took the bronze.

I think this should be a signal to young kids who look at the sprints and mistakenly think that they will never succeed due to the colour of an athlete's skin. Ditto for the children whose coaches convince them to move up to the 800m because of their skin colour. It is possible to be a successful sprinter, no matter your skin colour.

Wariner has always refused to let the colour of his skin be an issue, and that attitude has helped him to become the seventh fastest 400m runner of all time as well as the Olympic and world champion.

Another athlete who did not let stereotypes, his skin colour or the sceptics stop him from achieving greatness is Craig Mottram, of Australia, who finished third in an event that historically, and certainly recently, has been dominated by Africans. Mottram's bronze medal in the World Championships 5,000m was the first time since 1987 that a runner not born in Africa was placed in the top three of this event at the championships.

Mottram showed true grit and determination over the last 50 metres when, having been passed by what looked to be the eventual three medallists, he gave everything he had to pass the third-placed Eliud Kipchoge, of Kenya, to snatch the bronze medal. Mottrams' determination, not only in this race but also during training and preparation, should inspire to those young athletes who go into a race with Africans having already conceded the medals.

The Spanish !! wrote:

Three Spanish guys in the 1500m final, only one Kenyan. Oh yes and three Spanish guys in the 3000m steeplechase final as well.

I guess that the Spanish are genetically gifted as well ....

WHEN THET'RE TESTING FOR DRUGS THE AFRICANS STAY HOME. SURE THE AFRICANS ARE GOOD BUT 3:43 miles and 26:27 10K'S ARE THE STUFF OF THE DRUGGISTS AND CHEMISTS...NO ONE HAS RUN FASTER THAN JOHN WALKERS 3:49 OR HENRY RONO'S 27:07 WITHOUT THE USE OF EPO...........

THE TOP DISTANCE RUNNERS FROM EAST AFRICA ARE DUE TO DRUGS.[/quote]

Rafael Palmeiro....You are sad, bitter and more than a bit stupid. What a ridiculous quote....Please tell us more about this national doping conspiracy that apparently exists in what are some of the poorest countries in the world.... Actually, don't bother...Just go to bed![/quote]

it was not a national doping conspiracy but rather a corportate conspiracey...fila sent cardiologist to kenya to "develop" some distance runners...said cardiologist was previously kicked out of cycling for epo.....

A few definitions and examples that this thread is screaming for:

NOT GENETICS:

1. Running to school everyday.

2. Driving an SUV to school everday, even if it's right across the damn street!

3. Eating ugali and vegetables and other organic products.

4. Eating fast food everyday (watch Super Size Me)

5. Not being lazy.

6. Taking PE out of schools.

7. Having a system that seeks out the best talent (the old FILA Discovery races held or still held in Kenya, military and police teams that compete against each other which is basically a club system)

8. Having a club system that has failed over the past 10-20 years. Having too many options for the endurance athlete (In Kenya a Lance Armstrong would have been a runner not a cyclist).

IS GENETICS:

1. Having a higher % of the population very lean with little muscle mass (Ectomorph vs Mesomorph).

2. Having a very mixed population due to the immigration of different cultures. Most of the western world has been very well mixed for a few centuries now. In a very mixed population you'll have less % of people with one body type. Some people, due to genetics, simply retain muscle mass more, or don't retain muscles mass, or retain fat more, or don't retain fat more (Ectomorph vs Endomorph vs Mesomorph).

3. Having a population who have lived in the same highland area for centuries and thus have a higher % of people with higher natural aerobic abilities (Rift Valley, Nandi tribe)

4. Generally speaking an unmixed population will have certain dominant characteristics that an mixed population doesn't have as much of.

So, the question becomes why are West Africans dominant in the sprints and East Africans in the distance races? Well, you could ask a similar question to European slave traders. Why were West African slaves bought and traded more than their Central or East African mates? Probably some underlying genetic trait that made West Africans stronger and sturdier (mesomorphism) had something to do with it.

I'm NOT saying a SINGLE caucasion couldn't dominate the sprints or distances. We're simply talking about genetic predisposition and averages. Hell, I gather in another 50 years or so Kenya, Ethiopia, etc will be mixed up enough that genetics won't matter. Then again, by that time we'll be able to genetically alter ourselves to whatever traits we want.

Alan

"Why were West African slaves bought and traded more than their Central or East African mates? Probably some underlying genetic trait that made West Africans stronger and sturdier (mesomorphism) had something to do with it."

Geography. Convenience. That is all. Nothing to do with selection of a superior slave.

Er, NO! wrote:

"Why were West African slaves bought and traded more than their Central or East African mates? Probably some underlying genetic trait that made West Africans stronger and sturdier (mesomorphism) had something to do with it."

Geography. Convenience. That is all. Nothing to do with selection of a superior slave.

AFRICANS WERE SLAVES IN AFRICA AND WERE SOLD TO THE WEST AS EXPERIENCED SLAVES. IT WAS NOT AS YOU STUPIDLY STATE, "GEOGRAPHIC, OR CONVENIENT." YOU SEE, IT INVOLVED AN EXPENSIVE 3,000 MILE TRIP ACCROSS THE ATLANTIC.

THERE WERE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF SLAVE CANDIDATES ALREADY IN AMERICA. THE AMERICAN INDIANS. BUT THE AMERICAN INDIAN WOULD HAVE NO PART OF THAT SCENE. THEY WOULD HAVE FOUGHT, RUN AWAY, ETC. TO AVOID BEING SOME ENGLISH DUDES SLAVE. THE AMERICAN INDIAN AS SLAVE WOULD HAVE BEEN YOUR "GEOGRAPHIC OR CONVENIENT." BUT NOT DOABLE.....TRY TO THINK THINGS OUT BEFORE YOU SPEW.

johnny carson was a good man. johnny carson was intelligent and well spoken. johnny carson loved people, and people loved him. johnny carson was very well respected.

you sir-you are no johnny carson.

anyone who posts a full paragraph in capitals is not a person to try and reason with.

I have a qustion for this thread.

If being born at altitude is so beneficial, how come runners from Nepal are so bad at distance running? I see a lot of Nepalese runners training where I live, and none of them can run faster than 35 minutes for 10k.

the american indian would not have been convienent. They were actually the first slaves and were used extensively by the first europeans. The problem were that the Indians knew the land better than the Europeans and could run away and blend in. The indians also had weaker immune systems than Africans because they lived in relative isolation and relatively cold weather while central Africa (primarily because of weather is disease filled) leading to stronger immune systems.

Wait, there are 9 out of the 10 best Africans in the world behind Vroeman? That's impossible.

"It will never happen"

1 Shaheen Saif Saaeed QAT 7:55.51

2 Vroemen Simon NED 8:04.95

3 Boulami Brahim MAR 8:07.48

4 Kemboi Ezekiel KEN 8:09.73

5 Tahri Bouabdallah FRA 8:10.22

6 Matelong Richard KEN 8:10.97

7 Obaid Musa Amer QAT 8:12.26

8 Kiprotich Wesley KEN 8:12.92

9 Misoi Kipkirui KEN 8:13.08

10 Kipruto Brimin KEN 8:14.26

11 Chumba Linus KEN 8:17.29

12 Martín Luis Miguel ESP 8:25.33

13 Le Dauphin Vincent FRA 8:26.62

14 Desmet Pieter BEL 8:29.80

15 Kipyego Michael KEN 8:29.82

16 van Koolwijk Krijn BEL 8:37.86

what