Sub 3HR Fall Marathon Thread - The quest for less amateur glory begins?

Northener wrote:

So I finished of the week and got the long run in as well. So the week ended up like this:

Mon: Easy 6.3mi (9/mi)

Tue: M-pace 8.2mi (6'48/mi), total 11.6mi

Wed: Rest

Thu: 7x800 2'56-2'59 with 2'40 jog rest, total 9.1mi

Fri: Rest

Sat: Long run 20mi (8/mi) last 5k@M-pace (6'45/mi)

Sun: Rest

Total of 47 miles.

Struggled a little bit this week after my cold. But feeling good, should bounce back nicely next week.

Nice 800 workout on Thursday

runnerchef wrote:

Nice 800 workout on Thursday

Thanks! It was a hard session for me. I hadn't done them in a while and had some angst before starting. Almost gave up after the first one. Felt a bit better half way through and then just hung in there til the end. I'm more slow twitch, so faster stuff is mentally and physically challenging... And of course I'm a retard for not training faster stuff more than I do. Nevermind! Doing what I can and see where I end up.

runnerchef wrote:

Great to see everyone still trucking...

Closed out a solid week

Fr: 18 mile long run @ 7:45 with last ~2 miles around RP - 90% humidity, lost like 5 pounds during the run hah.

Sat : 5 mi @8

Sun: 5 mi @7:45

Closed the week out at 70 miles - going to try to replicate 70+ for the foreseeable future.

Why are you running the first 16miles @ 7:45? Kind of no mans land there. Maybe better to do 8-8:30 to give you a longer M part (3-5mi) at the end? Might give you better payback.

Northener wrote:

runnerchef wrote:

Great to see everyone still trucking...

Closed out a solid week

Fr: 18 mile long run @ 7:45 with last ~2 miles around RP - 90% humidity, lost like 5 pounds during the run hah.

Sat : 5 mi @8

Sun: 5 mi @7:45

Closed the week out at 70 miles - going to try to replicate 70+ for the foreseeable future.

Why are you running the first 16miles @ 7:45? Kind of no mans land there. Maybe better to do 8-8:30 to give you a longer M part (3-5mi) at the end? Might give you better payback.

sorry average was 7:45 - first 14 miles were around an 8, next 2 miles were around a 7:30 and then ramped up last two miles.

But I agree, probably better to split it up more explicitly. These are my first attempts at these long runs (first marathon) so I'm just getting a feel. This Friday have a 20-miler planned, hoping to do first 14 miles slowly (~8:15s or so) and then last 6 miles at RP (6:35 or so). Would that make sense?

Less than a week out from my first marathon.

Mileage has been reduced. Hit an easy tempo workout this morning, with plenty left in the tank. 4x2k w/ 2min standing rest, on the track. Averaging 7:05. Going to do a short fartlek on Friday to get my legs turning over, but all the work is behind me!

Temperatures have dropped across the midwest, which has been a welcome sight! Temperatures should start in the mid to low 60s on race day (with medium/high humidity) and get up to around 72-75 by the end. Not ideal, but far from the worst it could be in early September.

Goal is still 2:50.

Coffee Monster wrote:

Less than a week out from my first marathon.

Mileage has been reduced. Hit an easy tempo workout this morning, with plenty left in the tank. 4x2k w/ 2min standing rest, on the track. Averaging 7:05. Going to do a short fartlek on Friday to get my legs turning over, but all the work is behind me!

Temperatures have dropped across the midwest, which has been a welcome sight! Temperatures should start in the mid to low 60s on race day (with medium/high humidity) and get up to around 72-75 by the end. Not ideal, but far from the worst it could be in early September.

Goal is still 2:50.

Great to see that you feel ready for the effort!

How much did you reduce your mileage last week and this week as a % of normal weekly training volume?

runnerchef wrote:

Northener wrote:

Why are you running the first 16miles @ 7:45? Kind of no mans land there. Maybe better to do 8-8:30 to give you a longer M part (3-5mi) at the end? Might give you better payback.

sorry average was 7:45 - first 14 miles were around an 8, next 2 miles were around a 7:30 and then ramped up last two miles.

But I agree, probably better to split it up more explicitly. These are my first attempts at these long runs (first marathon) so I'm just getting a feel. This Friday have a 20-miler planned, hoping to do first 14 miles slowly (~8:15s or so) and then last 6 miles at RP (6:35 or so). Would that make sense?

^^This. Yes, makes sense. Do exactly that. Time on feet 2hrs, nevermind pace +8 is good. Set it up for the last 3-6mi at MP. That will help you come race day. Also, bid your time when the race is on. You can blow the whole thing first 5k if you go out too fast.

First time poster on this thread..

I am running Indianapolis in 12ish weeks (11/8)... following pfitz 12/55

This will be my 3rd marathon. My first two were last year (Illinois - 3:30, Chicago 3:20)

I just ran a HM TT this weekend to dial in my training paces and did a 1:29.50

I think I have a chance to get close to 3:00, but don't think I'll be able to crack it on this one.

last chance runner wrote:

runnerchef wrote:

How was your nutrition on the long run? I've been doing a little gu chew every two miles and it seems to work (what I did in my half ironman days usually)

I never consume any calories during long runs. The theory is that I'm training my body to metabolize fat. I'm not sure if that's valid or not. During marathons, I'll drink the Gatorade, and eat a couple gels. I have an iron stomach, so no need to practice taking the gels. No worries about any issues on marathon day.

I hear you but you may want to do one long run as a dress rehearsal with the exact brand gel you’ll have on race day. Why risk wasting all of your hard work by being a tough guy on your long runs?

Epg0 wrote:

First time poster on this thread..

I am running Indianapolis in 12ish weeks (11/8)... following pfitz 12/55

This will be my 3rd marathon. My first two were last year (Illinois - 3:30, Chicago 3:20)

I just ran a HM TT this weekend to dial in my training paces and did a 1:29.50

I think I have a chance to get close to 3:00, but don't think I'll be able to crack it on this one.

Good luck. Was that HM all out effort or run relatively steady (e.g., not pushing too much)? If the former, I'd caution against going out with the 3:00 pace group. You might blow up. I was a 1:28:xx runner and ran 3:10:xx. That might be a more reasonable goal.

runnerchef wrote:

Coffee Monster wrote:

Less than a week out from my first marathon.

Mileage has been reduced. Hit an easy tempo workout this morning, with plenty left in the tank. 4x2k w/ 2min standing rest, on the track. Averaging 7:05. Going to do a short fartlek on Friday to get my legs turning over, but all the work is behind me!

Temperatures have dropped across the midwest, which has been a welcome sight! Temperatures should start in the mid to low 60s on race day (with medium/high humidity) and get up to around 72-75 by the end. Not ideal, but far from the worst it could be in early September.

Goal is still 2:50.

Great to see that you feel ready for the effort!

How much did you reduce your mileage last week and this week as a % of normal weekly training volume?

Was training in the ballpark of 70 for last 6 weeks. Dropped 15% to 60 last week. Going to be around 40 this week (43% total drop).

Coffee Monster wrote:

Less than a week out from my first marathon.

Mileage has been reduced. Hit an easy tempo workout this morning, with plenty left in the tank. 4x2k w/ 2min standing rest, on the track. Averaging 7:05. Going to do a short fartlek on Friday to get my legs turning over, but all the work is behind me!

Temperatures have dropped across the midwest, which has been a welcome sight! Temperatures should start in the mid to low 60s on race day (with medium/high humidity) and get up to around 72-75 by the end. Not ideal, but far from the worst it could be in early September.

Goal is still 2:50.

Which marathon?

IndyJ wrote:

Coffee Monster wrote:

Less than a week out from my first marathon.

Mileage has been reduced. Hit an easy tempo workout this morning, with plenty left in the tank. 4x2k w/ 2min standing rest, on the track. Averaging 7:05. Going to do a short fartlek on Friday to get my legs turning over, but all the work is behind me!

Temperatures have dropped across the midwest, which has been a welcome sight! Temperatures should start in the mid to low 60s on race day (with medium/high humidity) and get up to around 72-75 by the end. Not ideal, but far from the worst it could be in early September.

Goal is still 2:50.

Which marathon?

Heart of America Marathon. Columbia, MO.

last chance runner wrote:

I never consume any calories during long runs. The theory is that I'm training my body to metabolize fat. I'm not sure if that's valid or not. During marathons, I'll drink the Gatorade, and eat a couple gels. I have an iron stomach, so no need to practice taking the gels. No worries about any issues on marathon day.

I don't know if that's the best strategy for a 2:59 marathon. Well, lemme explain.

Generally, metabolizing fat works well for training/racing at low heart rates. So, for a 2:35 marathon runner, he/she could probably run a 2:59 marathon at a relatively lower HR, and thus, use fat for fuel. That's the big misconception when people see guys run fast paces for long distance without consuming many carbs.. they are also at a low HR.

For us people on the edge of 3hrs as a "max effort", our average HR will most likely be too high to really use fat for much fuel. If you were in shape to run a 2:59 marathon, you could probably go out and run a 3:50 marathon without taking in much carbs, provided you were "trained" to metabolize fat, as they say.

Anyways, you won't know until you try it.

UA Runner wrote:

For us people on the edge of 3hrs as a "max effort", our average HR will most likely be too high to really use fat for much fuel.

Thanks for that insight. I had sort of a vague notion about metabolizing fat, but it sounds like I may need to rethink. In any case, I was planning on taking carbs during the marathon itself.

I've never had stomach issues -- I often run immediately after eating. Even after big meals like Thanksgiving dinner. Literally get up from stuffing myself, put on shorts and shoes and run a good pace.

Interestingly, during my very first marathon, I consumed only water, and had no bonk all. The final 10 km was actually the fastest by far. Started really slow, 5 min per km pace for the first half, finished with a 3:15. That was 22 years ago.

last chance runner wrote:

Thanks for that insight. I had sort of a vague notion about metabolizing fat, but it sounds like I may need to rethink. In any case, I was planning on taking carbs during the marathon itself.

That's how a lot of people do it--stick to low/no carb most of the time, but add them in the night before and during big workouts and races. Pretty common to do it that way.

I will say--I run most of my long runs starting around 9:00/mi, finishing 6:45ish over the course of 20-22 miles. I don't need to take much for fuel either. That is MUCH different than doing 6:45/mi out of the gate for 26.2 miles! I can stick it out through those final 3-4 miserable miles of a long run, but if I run out of fuel at mile 15 of a marathon.. forget it.

At the end of the day, everyone is different. Carbohydrates are proven, tested and I'd say most people rely on them. But, not everyone does.. so do what works best for you. People to weird stuff in marathons, so don't count any plan out.

UA, thanks again. Generally, I keep my long runs very slow and easy. Weight management is one reason for those longer runs, so if I'm burning some fat, that's good. I usually don't do marathon pace except during, like, 12-mile runs.

lurker on this thread wrote:

Epg0 wrote:

First time poster on this thread..

I am running Indianapolis in 12ish weeks (11/8)... following pfitz 12/55

This will be my 3rd marathon. My first two were last year (Illinois - 3:30, Chicago 3:20)

I just ran a HM TT this weekend to dial in my training paces and did a 1:29.50

I think I have a chance to get close to 3:00, but don't think I'll be able to crack it on this one.

Good luck. Was that HM all out effort or run relatively steady (e.g., not pushing too much)? If the former, I'd caution against going out with the 3:00 pace group. You might blow up. I was a 1:28:xx runner and ran 3:10:xx. That might be a more reasonable goal.

Ya, I wasn't holding too much back. I agree - aiming for sub 3:10

Me

Epg0 wrote:

lurker on this thread wrote:

Good luck. Was that HM all out effort or run relatively steady (e.g., not pushing too much)? If the former, I'd caution against going out with the 3:00 pace group. You might blow up. I was a 1:28:xx runner and ran 3:10:xx. That might be a more reasonable goal.

Ya, I wasn't holding too much back. I agree - aiming for sub 3:10

Me

Sounds reasonable to aim for 3:10. I had 1:28 HM time for a 3:05 M. I think getting the HM down to 1:24ish is wise before targeting sub3. Good luck!