Who loves the French?

Isreal was attacked on multiple occassions by multiple hostile nations. It seems reasonable that the land seized when they routed the collective Arab armies should be retained and serve as a "buffer zone" against further attack...not taking into account the spoils of war arguement. The Jordanians had the longest time to provide their Palestinian bretheren with their own state....but they just kicked the can down the road as well. Where was the public outcry in the Arab community then? Even if a Palestinian state is established, the hostilities will continue....why? Jealousy. Why is it that there is not one Arab country capable of producing anything whatsoever. Not cars,planes,machined hardware,software...even the oil within their own land could not be extracted and refined without western materials and expertise. Why! Perhaps the answer lies in an arrested culture, one based on fundamentally flawed religious doctrine. Once established, does anyone really believe Palestine would flourish as Isreal has in the short timespan we've seen. I think not. I think we would see much the same situation that exsists in other current Arab nations. Soon enough, they would begin to look at Isreal with a jealous eye, wondering why they are not able to attain the same results. Not to mentioned the thousands of years of hatred towards Jews passed down through the generations and taught to children from birth. Pictures of infants strapped with explosives and holding automatic weapons is a look at a culture seriously flawed and destined to fail until some true idealogical changes occur within. I'm not optomistic this will happen.

happy hornet wrote:

when you go to war you actually stimulate the economy at the same time in some industry and sector. We all know or maybe not, but GOld goes up in this kinds of situation. YOu give the military more jobs, building weapons. Try to Remember Rambo 3. Remember the Mujaheedeen (Islamic warriors). In the past the Afgan war with the soviets the America was supplying the stinger missiles used by the mujahedeen. Wouldn't be suprised if the missle used to shoot the al-el fight from Kenyan was Uncle Sam's little gift to the "extremists". See the difference when they where fighting the Soviets they where freedom fighter. Words how fickle. Bush is a rep. His bread and butter is big tobbacco, and guess what gunns. Selling guns is a very lucrative business you know. Especially if a whole region is unstable.

War spending only stimulates the economy artificially. It is only detrimental when you spend large amounts of public money on things you plan on blowing up.

The US no longer uses the gold standard and has greatly reduced it's national supply. Minimal gains can be achieved by driving up its price.

I would be surprised about the Kenyan missle being a Stinger giving that its remains were discovered soon after and it was found to be a home-built job. Probably a main reason why it didn't do more than go 'bang'.

I posted a link on the Boycott thread about political contributions to the 2000 election campaign. Please back up your claims of Bush being subject to the whims of big tobbacco or the gun industry.

Discussions like this are more tame. Yes you are right, but in post Enron corporate world and the fall of many corporate corporate giants like WorldCom we can see that the bottomline now is what matters. Wall Street can be very cruel. We know that Bush sucks at the economy, says the wrong stuff and the Dow and Nasdaq plunge. Imagine this happening during Bill Clinton's time wouldn't happen. He charm Saddam out of his weapons. He got away with Monia Lewinsky and the CHinese political contribution to his campain. Bush is fumbling very badly. About Bush well I'm just stating traditional republican stance on big business. Their loyalties seems to lie with big tobbacco, oil, and guns. I'm just saying it's a coincedence. Take it how you will. Of course we hear stuff like Bush sr I think saying no new taxes, but they always tell us what we want to hear.

In a free and capitalist society, I think the bottom line was what mattered most long before Enron or WorldCom. If you aren't making money, then you can't pay your workers or suppliers and soon will be out of business. Perhaps you suggest a non-profit state run industry as exemplified by the fine consumer products churned out by the fUSSR.

Can you name a US president who couldn't cause big drops in the DOW or NASDAQ by saying the wrong things? As for Clinton "charming" Saddam out of his WMD, how successful was he at this during the 8 years he tried? Even had to resort to dropping a few bombs to try and get some compliance with the will of the international community as well.

The Prime Minister of my own country promised to eliminate a major tax if elected. He's yet to follow through on that promise 10 years later. Leaders failing to honour election platforms is nothing new and not unique to right wingers. If you are going to throw out the "in the pocket of big oil" card, you'll have to do better than "their loyalties seem to lie with".

Why do the French Smell? A: So blind people can hate them too!

Why do the french call their fighter the *Mirage*? A: Because it doesn't really exist

Why do the French have glass bottom boats in their Navy.....To see all their other ships.

How did the French react to German reunification? They put up speed bumps at the borders to slow down the panzers

A man askes his companion, "What's the most common French expression"? His friend scratches his head, shrugs his shoulders and replies, "I give up!"

Q. How any French soldiers does it take to change a light bulb? A. Five

one to sit on his butt and watch and do nothing.

the second to turn tail and run.

the third to roll over.

the forth to surrender to the light bulb and snitch out occupied sconces.

and the fifth to pick up a phone and cry to the United States.

Why do we need France on our side against Sadamm and Osama? So the French can show them how to surrender.

What's the difference between a dead skunk and a dead french man In the middle of the road? There's skid marks In front of the skunk

Why don't they have fireworks at Euro Disney? Because every time they shoot them off, the French try to surrender

Did you hear about the Frenchman who lost his licence to practice medicin? He was caught having sex with some of his patients. It's a shame, he was by far the best vet in town.

What do you get if you see a Frenchman up to his neck in sand? More sand.

Boy, hornet, where do I begin. First, I noticed that you haven't even responded to goose's latest post which means either you're tired of babbling incoherent sentenses or you don't have a good counterpoint.

Here's a good question for you. Why didn't Arafat accept the offer that was on the table 2-3 years ago? He could have had 95% of what he wanted. The answer is simple. They don't want a state next to Israel. They want to destroy Israel. This is Hamas's stated goal, which is much different that Israel's goal.

As for innocent Palestinian women and children dying, that is a shame and noone here would wish that upon them. But you'll notice that Hamas doesn't have a uniform. They don't have a home base. They live among the civilians. Hamas uses the innocent Palestinians as human shields. I would think that you would find that repulsive also.

Lastly, with Israel locking up people for long periods of time. If non-military, non-uniformed suicide bombers and terrorist were indiscriminately killing my civilian population, I'd probably take some drastic measures. If neighboring nations of mine that are 20 times the size of my nation were constantly starting wars with me, I'd probably be a little cagey, also.

The difference here is that Israel is fighting for their lives. Their Arabs neighbors are fighting to destroy them.

In franch Iraq is Irak.

-An American was telling one of his favorite jokes to a group of friends. "Hell is a place where the cooks are British, the waiters are French, the policemen are Germans, and the trains are run by Italians."

The lone European in the group pondered all this for a second and responded, "I can't say about the police and the trains, but you're probably right about going out to eat. A restaurant in Hell would be one where the cooks are British and the waiters are French - and the customers are all Americans."

-In America, anyone can be elected president - as long as his father was president, his brother is governor of a state with lots of electoral votes, his state campaign co-chair in that state is in charge of certifying the state's election results, the police of that state keep members of racial minorities from getting to the polls to vote, and not even a plurality of votes across the nation is needed to be elected

- On the sixth day God turned to the Archangel Gabriel and said: "Today I am going to create a land called Canada. It will be a land of outstanding natural beauty. It shall have tall majestic mountains full of bears and eagles, beautifully sparkling lakes bountiful with trout, forests full of elk and moose, high cliffs overlooking sandy beaches with an abundance of sea life, and rivers stocked with salmon." God continued, "I shall make the land rich in oil so that the inhabitants will prosper. I shall call these inhabitants "Canadians", and they shall be known as the most friendly people on the earth."

"But Lord," asked Gabriel, "don't you think you are being too generous to these Canadians?"

"Not really," replied God. "Just wait and see the neighbors I'm going to give them.

Hi Dav lets leave the name calling out of this. Is it just me, why do you keep talking down to me. Are you on some sort of werid power trip? Let's have a good discussion like men.

Arafat didn't accept as I mention many posts ago, because

there are a lot of clauses and cavets in signing such a deal. There was a discovery channel program that stated the Palistinian's position on this. An example of this is your standard 1800 phone company deal. You always read the fine print and according to Palistinian sources

* arrest the 100 or so prisoners freed from jail at the start of the intifada plus further ?suspected terrorists,? including members of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah guerrillas operating from within its areas;

* unconditionally end the armed confrontation without linking the cease-fire to any of the recommendations in the Mitchell report, most notably the freeze on the Israeli settlements, or indeed any previous agreements with the Israelis;

* accept a buffer zone around Israeli settlements that would be ?no-go? areas for Palestinians.

ok you say 95% but the truth is that there are more dynamics to a deal than just that 95%. Palestinian side also has to give someting up like mentioned above. 95% sounds good, but actually you are losing much more.

Hamas is just a manifistation of the desperate situation there. The leader of Hamas readily admitts that they only went to radical Islamic practices because of the situation.

So the problem is not Hamas, it is the lack of humanity the Israeli have shown to these people.

Answer me one question what normal man would go blow himself up? Shows you how desperate these people are.

Hamas using people as human shields is debatable. Honestly we are hearing reports from the Israeli media, Palestinians have less of a voice you see. DO what the FBI in the states does. The go to the door of the suspected terrorist, they don't start a gun battle in downtown NY. Follow the guy. You got the technology Israel use it!!

Actually I know the Arab and Israeli mentallity well. Been to many lectures and hear people like Hamza Yusuf I think got an honarary degree from Havard I think. I think the situation is salvagable. Remember Rabi he was the first guy will to give the Palestinian's a fair shake and look what happened to him.

And Dav let's talk like civilized people I respect you ideas. Is this how you debate with people in the office? Calling them idiots and incoherant? Man get an attitude change. Oh yeah this is letsrun.com I'm a runner sorry if I don't respond to your questions all the freaking time. I got a career that demand me put over 100mi a week, kind of difficult if I chat all teh time. By the way Hadd's training articles are infinately more interesting than arguing with you.

that's it you win Dav. I enjoyed the French jokes. See you around no hard feelings.

So what are these "guerillas" doing if it is not attacking Israelis and therefore posing a safety and security threat that deserves to have them locked up?

So the Palestinians wanted to sign a peace treaty but not submit to actually having to engage in peace and not go shooting and blowing people up?

Given that many Palestinians have shown an affinity for sneaking into Israeli territory and attacking unarmed civilians, wouldn't a bit of a buffer zone be just common sense for the Israelis? Didn't they build a DMZ in the Koreas for a similar reason?

Loosing much more than the status quo they have right now?

Doesn't show how desperate people are. The middle class wackos who flew planes into buildings a little while ago weren't on the brink of poverty. The ones who load themselves up with shrapnel and seek out women and children are the young and uneducated who are easily brainwashed into committing these acts. What kind of rational person thinks it's a good or even desperate act to deliberately target women, children and the elderly? Or believe that 70something virgins are awaiting them for this act? Why aren't the more intelligent leaders of these fanatics blowing themselves up? Might it be because it's easier to get someone else to stand up for their beliefs?

You've obviously been missing out on what has been happening in the area. Israelis do go to the door of suspected terrorists. They end up getting shot at by all their neighbours. Law enforcement is trained to shoot back, defend themselves and capture/punish the lawbreakers. They may not start the gun battles, but they do what they can to finish them. And they also use the technology. It's a lot safer for the citizens at large to send in a guided missle from a helicopter to take out one building or car, than to send in a couple hundred troops on the ground with armour for protection, just to make it to the front door of the terrorist in question. How many innocent civilians would get themselves caught in the cross fire in that kind of operation?

So here's my question again. What concessions do you think the Israelis can genuinely make that will remove from the minds of the majority of Palestinians the desire to wipe Israel off the map? What can Israel do that could ensure safety and security from such a hostile population?

1. You're right. I did behave badly. Sorry. I was inflamed by the anti-semetic speech by "waz", talking about blowing up all Jews. I am not Jewish, but have many Jewish friends.

2. See Asterix's post just after yours. It pretty much sums up my feeling on this matter. My premise being that a small group of Palestinians, including Arafat, are Palestines problems. Arafat receives alot of funding from around the world, but doesn't seem to understand the trickle down affect.

3. While I don't 100% agree with the settlements, I do believe that without the settlements, some group of Arabs would still be attacking them. Considering, that 5 Arab nations started three wars with them within 20 years, that's not going out on a limb.

4. Asterix makes a good point about the 9/11. What normal person would strap a bomb to themselves and blow themselves up? Along those lines what normal person would fly a plane into a building? These are Islamic extremists, that don't think like you are I. They are taught hatred at a very young age.

So this is all about the $$. Take out the JEWS with a shit load of A-bombs & everybody will be happy, but nobody wants to talk about that do they? The truth is out there people but your too f***ed by your TV talking heads to get it. Hitler was a good man someone said. WE better own those oil fields when we're done over there, I want my cheap gas.

Dav don't know why you are so angry you are basically agreeing with my premise. I said Israel stole the land. You said west Bank and Gaza (not Gazi you dumb f***). Oh you are telling me this is not Palestine. Dude maybe you should go back and do you history huh. Fucking retard.

The US government that killed 10 million American Indians so what's the f***ing big deal over a few dead people here and there. What? These people blood is so cheap.

All I'm saying Dav is if we are going into this shit we might as well get rich off it. Don't you understand even though the US motive is not oil people are still going to talk shit so might as well. The jury is already out on this one, or is you head so far up your ass you can't see this.

Ok let's say you live in the USA. Bank robbery and the suspect runs through a mall, police protocol prevents you from shooting in a crowded area. Look at the Jews. Fucking firing their machine guns into crowded areas. Oh we were shooting terrorists, doesn't matter that we kill a couple of people to do it. War on terror my ass. You are the f***ing terrorists ib the eyes of my Sharon.

TMR, you are either an idiot, really naive, or ignorant

Some post ago I gave frigging Dav a history lesson. The Jewish ideal is to rebuild the temple of solomonnnnnn you dumb f***. Not to annex more land. The Israeli peace proposal from your side of the fence says you gave concessions, my side says that's not true. It Jews word against the Palestinians. 95% that a bullshit fairy tale, even if it where true it would be marked up by so many if's and clauses lawyer style.

You are a jew arn't you. There are no ovens, but I've seen then torture men, and kill little boys. If that doesn't remind you of Hitler ok maybe you just don't what to see it.

Do you know what Sharon's nickname is. The butcher baby. You better believe it.

You totally missed my point on the oil issue. Read my post again. I said since we are going to get blamed for this might as well do it (this is just a suggestion in case you didn't get it numb skull). Very different from actually carrying it out.

About the France thing are you stupid. Let's see what is cheaper buying it from France or stealing it from Iraq. Don't think too hard. Enough I won't even respond to the other allegations case closed you are an idiot.

Ok Dav who doesn't give up after truce is call. Firstly why in god's green earth did the Israelis pick that spot on earth to set up camp? Why didn't they choose you ass to call Israel. That because that land has significance to three major religions. No points for known these three are. This is the holy city man. Blood has been spilled over this land. Crusader vs Muslims for that Dome of the Rock. It not anti Semetic it's the f***ing truth. It's like calling a person gay, and being labled as a homophobic. But that's what it f***ing is. YOu dodo. I am adopted by a semitic family. So your antisemitic comments apply less. Wait for part 2 coming right up. I'll answer you other arguments. Damn this is fun