Olympic Marathon Silver Medalist Eunice Kirwa Busted for EPO Doping

rteyyrerty wrote:

don't be a moran wrote:

He was feeding that line for years...

Is that proof? No

And casual, with all due respect, that post has nothing to do with this. Canova has never said EPO doesn't work on East Africans.

I like you posts, usually. Please do better than that.

You haven't been following the argument. Canova has consistently maintained that the right training makes doping unnecessary - and that the best athletes are clean. Yet Kenyans continue to dope.

Saying that the right training makes doping unnecessary is not the same as saying that doping doesn't work on East Africans.

words mean things wrote:

Saying that the right training makes doping unnecessary is not the same as saying that doping doesn't work on East Africans.

Read Canova's quote on blood manipulation posted by casual obsever on page #3: "....for a race of 2 hours the negative effects are superior of the positive effects."

Translation: If the negative effects are superior to the positive effects in 2+ hrs of sub-maximal effort, he's saying it doesn't work on any marathoners including "East Africans." Which is so stupid considering the dozens of top female marathoners (major medal/title winners & NR record holders) who served bans for EPO use/blood manipulation including some extremely fast ones (e.g., Jeptoo, Shobukhova, Sumgong, etc.)

rteyyrerty wrote:

[quote]don't be a moran wrote:

[quote]rteyyrerty wrote:

[quote]MustBeAHoax wrote:

And casual, with all due respect, that post has nothing to do with this. Canova has never said EPO doesn't work on East Africans.

Well you are right that it is a different statement, but it does have something to do with it. Note that I wrote "see also" and not "see there for proof".

Anyhow, what Canova used to say is that Epo doesn't work on athletes born and raised and trained (well) at altitude. And yes, that is different but athletes like Jeptoo might fall into that group.

Fishy wrote:

Kenya, B. (NIKE )Lagat was busted for EPO and let off by IAAF in 2003. He always hid behind Kenyan purity and his agent accosted anyone who spoke out against him. Lassiter knew something was fishy when they were training together. I knew something was fishy when he was barely running 3:38 in NCAA and two months later runs 3:26. The worst part was that silly grin he he had on him while he gave advice to everyone around him how to get faster.

This isn't entirely correct but there is some truth to it. I recall at the time numerous Stanford (and Oregon milers) howling because Lagat was a week in week out 3:37/38 guy (though he was 3:34 capable) and made big jumps over the next 16 months to 3:28. Nice to watch in full stride but the era outs these guys as suspicious.

Armstronglivs wrote:

rteyyrerty wrote:

Is that proof? No

And casual, with all due respect, that post has nothing to do with this. Canova has never said EPO doesn't work on East Africans.

I like you posts, usually. Please do better than that.

You haven't been following the argument. Canova has consistently maintained that the right training makes doping unnecessary - and that the best athletes are clean. Yet Kenyans continue to dope.

Correct, he said that it doesn't work on altitude natives and his story keeps changing. For years on here he maintained that world record holder-types don't take drugs and set their WRs through dedication Boulami, Paula, Kiprop and Kiptum never cheated. Proper training is all that is needed.

Yes. Dont forget El G. And he kept insisting that Jeptoo only started doping in the preparation for Chicago 2014 because of missed training.

When IAAF then banned her for doping in Boston too, supported by CAS, he came up with the conspiracy theory that the Major organizers made the IAAF ban a clean Jeptoo:

Would the IAAF under Lord Coe really DQ an innocent athlete, e.g. pressured or begged or bribed by the Majors? Interestingly, rekrunner remained silent on this, though that claim throws huge shades at his beloved IAAF.

Canova claimed he knew that Kenyan athletes were not doping because none of them would even take aspirin or supplements...(no outside support, even legal...)

also this wrote:

Canova claimed he knew that Kenyan athletes were not doping because none of them would even take aspirin or supplements...(no outside support, even legal...)

I remember that Canova claimed that Kenyan athletes would not even take drugs to treat diseases like malaria. Now some of these busted athletes are claiming that were taking EPO to treat malaria ...

rememberer wrote:

also this wrote:

Canova claimed he knew that Kenyan athletes were not doping because none of them would even take aspirin or supplements...(no outside support, even legal...)

I remember that Canova claimed that Kenyan athletes would not even take drugs to treat diseases like malaria. Now some of these busted athletes are claiming that were taking EPO to treat malaria ...

I'm not one to eulogise (in a serious manner) about people, especially runners or coaches but...

I've been travelling back and forth/living in Kenya since 1989 (not always running related) and when the Kenyans and Ethiopians started blowing everybody else off the track and roads, I immediately thought, they're all doping. But once I got more involved in the running scene in Kenya, I realised that the Kenyans definitely had some sort of 'genetic advantage' (suck it up, because they do). Kids come out of school (boys) and can run sub 30' for 10km, sub 3'45" 1500m off little/ no training, on cinder tracks, often at altitude. I know, it hurts. It's just the way it is and that's straight up.

Because many Kenyans are poor, they have a crack at running as a way out of poverty ( some also want the glory but most of them are humble). At some point, runners started doping. I believe when Canova first started posting about doping, he genuinely believed that runners weren't doping. I'm guessing that's because he was working with lots of runners day and night and saw their gift. As well as the gift, these guys train much harder than people in Europe and the US (bleat on all you want but they do). But they have another advantage, an ironic advantage: poverty. By default, they train like pro runners. They can sleep during the day, they run in big groups, and they help each other with food, rent, and kit. Running isn't something they do for their mental health or to pull chicks, they run for money and to be the best. That's how it should be too.

To beat these guys/get close to them, runners will have to do what Julian, Zane, Jake, and Sondre have done. Or, they'll have to dope/have immense natural talent. Which leads me into Doping With The Kenyans...

Canova can only talk about his athletes. How many of his athletes have been busted? As far as I know, none. And I'd bet if he suspected somebody, he'd report them immediately. You guys, trying to tar Canova with the doping brush are way off the mark. If you'd met him, spent time with him, and seen how passionate he is about this sport, you'd know you are wrong. To a fault, he's generous with his time and his knowledge. He's always talking to people and helping them. The man sits there, rattling off splits and workouts his runners did from years ago. He explains why they did the workouts. The man is ahead of his time and the people mocking him on here are jealous. No ifs, no buts, no maybes: Canova is the greatest. Suck it up.

Canova has very little to do with most of the runners in Iten. He has his own groups and works from 5am until late in the evening. I think he's 74/75. His energy is incredible. Yes, he talks to many runners and coaches but he's not out there on the streets with all runners of Iten, Eldoret, and Kapsabet etc. He can't vouch for every Kenyan runner. But Canova isn't in the doping game. Here's how I know...

I coach/support some runners Canova worked with a few years ago and all of them praise him highly as a coach and a man. He has regular meetings with his runners to educate against doping. All this Canova bashing about doping is misplaced. None of the runners I work with, have ever said anything about Canova and doping. One of the guys (Kiprono), who trained with Abel Kirui( did the massages too) wouldn't even take malaria prophylaxis when returning home to a malarial area. The same, when some of the guys returned from racing in Mombasa with malaria (the prophylaxis also cured malaria).

A lot is being lost in translation with Canova too. His English is excellent but he isn't English/American. The trolls are exploiting this and Canova still comes back to battle them.

The sad thing is that Canova is beyond any doubt the greatest distance coach of all time. You guys are missing a trick. He only puts up a small amount about training. People from here go off and copy his workouts without fully understanding how they fit in with the progressive and structured picture. They don't realise that the workouts are specific to an individual. If you were to engage with him in a meaningful manner and get him talking more about training, you would learn loads: you might even break 17' for 5k :). I've spent time with him having 'dinner' and picked up more in three hours than I have in 40 years. (Renato, so you know this isn't a troll: in the KV in February, you had fish fingers and chips; Tomas was there too. And I sent you the Whatsapp messages about Idris and Irine). When Athletics Kenya brought in the rules about foreign coaches etc, he went out his way to help me. Canova owed me nothing but helped me and many others, more than even he realises.

Yes, doping is a problem in Kenya but AK and lots of the coaches are trying to stamp it out. Registered athletes have to go on a two day anti doping course. On a previous thread, regarding the changes brought in by AK, Canova (I think I'm right here) mentioned about husbands/boyfriends coaching their wives/girlfriends, this is where people should be looking for the dopers and dealers.

There are going to be more busts and doping remains a problem in Kenya but the authorities are all over it, trying to stamp it out. Coaches are watching out for it more and more too. It'll take time to sort, but it will get sorted as the government is involved and in time, I'm sure people will end up in The Big House (jail).

Yes, a good few Kenyans from certain camps/towns are doping, but I'm certain Canova isn't involved in some crazy Armstrongesque doping ring that many on here suspect. There really isn't that much money in running.

Finally, get the man talking about training. He'll spend hours sharing valuable nuggets about training that will help everybody. Canova is not the bad guy here.

Fish 'n chips wrote:

Canova can only talk about his athletes.

If he only talked about his own athletes instead of making sweeping statements about all athletes, he would get less flak.

How many of his athletes have been busted? As far as I know, none.

False

fact check please wrote:

Fish 'n chips wrote:

Canova can only talk about his athletes.

If he only talked about his own athletes instead of making sweeping statements about all athletes, he would get less flak.

How many of his athletes have been busted? As far as I know, none.

False

Yes, he makes sweeping statements. But do you not realise that is more to do with his English and his passion. I accept sometimes his post read that way, but think about it logically: in Iten there are about 1000 runners. Canova has a small camp there with a handful of runners. Other runners are scattered about the town. Now, how many of his runners from Iten have been busted? I think you'll find that most of the busts are in fact from other towns. Yes, there are busts on runners from Iten, but I think you'll find most are from elsewhere...

And regarding your, 'False' post: please list Canova's busted runners. If he has lots of runners being busted then I'm happy to stand corrected. But note: I said 'as far as I know'.

You forgot Lagat.

casual obsever wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

Who would have thought 3-4 years ago that Kenya was the wild west of doping?

All of us? Rudisha, Kiprop, Koech, Kipkoech, Soi, Longosiwa?

Compare their times with today's Kenyan times...

You forgot Lagat.

None of the runners you quoted has ever had a positive A sample.

Thanks for the lengthy insightful post, giving some needed support to probably the last knowledgeable coach still left on letsrun. I think by "busted runners" people refer to runners like Jeptoo, who Renato used to coach years before the bust, or some of the Chinese women that eventually got busted, one because of Renato's involvement, that had trained in the same camp where Renato was coaching.

Fish ' chips wrote:

Yes, he makes sweeping statements. But do you not realise that is more to do with his English and his passion. I accept sometimes his post read that way, but think about it logically: in Iten there are about 1000 runners. Canova has a small camp there with a handful of runners. Other runners are scattered about the town. Now, how many of his runners from Iten have been busted? I think you'll find that most of the busts are in fact from other towns. Yes, there are busts on runners from Iten, but I think you'll find most are from elsewhere...

And regarding your, 'False' post: please list Canova's busted runners. If he has lots of runners being busted then I'm happy to stand corrected. But note: I said 'as far as I know'.

Fish 'n chips wrote:

Yes, doping is a problem in Kenya but AK and lots of the coaches are trying to stamp it out. Registered athletes have to go on a two day anti doping course. On a previous thread, regarding the changes brought in by AK, Canova (I think I'm right here) mentioned about husbands/boyfriends coaching their wives/girlfriends, this is where people should be looking for the dopers and dealers.

Man....if that isn't an understatement! Lol. Here's a list of top Kenyan female marathoners who served bans for doping (with one provisionally suspended for an ABP violation and one other for EPO):

Jeptoo/2:18:57 (*Boston CR)

Chepchirchir/2:19:47 (ABP provisional suspension)

Kabuu/2:20:21

Sumgong/2:20:48 (*Olympic Champion)

Kirwa/2:21:17 (EPO provisional suspension/*Olympic Silver medalist)

Cheromei/2:21:30

Kiyara/2:23:47

Chepchumba/2:25:46

Muraga/2:26:00

Asiago/2:37:24

The second issue here is you say the Kenyans have "some sort of genetic advantage." Okay...then; why in the world are they doping in the first place?

C'mon man!...10 of their top female marathoners caught for doping! Both the gold and silver medalist at Rio!

LDoc wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

All of us? Rudisha, Kiprop, Koech, Kipkoech, Soi, Longosiwa?

Compare their times with today's Kenyan times...

You forgot Lagat.

None of the runners you quoted has ever had a positive A sample.

Neither did Lagoy when they tested it properly.

Are you calling Jeptoo innocent? It is not "my beloved IAAF". I do find this odd way of expressing it insightful as to how you form your beliefs, relying heavily on appeal to authority. I'm not sure what you expected me to say. I don't align myself with particular persons or organizations, but with facts that can be supported or corroborated. I didn't have enough information at that time to doubt Renato to comment, and I had no doubts that there was enormous pressure, not only from the World Major Marathon organizers, but the public, on the IAAF to find a way to avoid a million dollar payout after a doping positive.

casual obsever wrote:

Would the IAAF under Lord Coe really DQ an innocent athlete, e.g. pressured or begged or bribed by the Majors? Interestingly, rekrunner remained silent on this, though that claim throws huge shades at his beloved IAAF.

rekrunner wrote:

Thanks for the lengthy insightful post, giving some needed support to probably the last knowledgeable coach still left on letsrun.

Canova has shared some great training insights on these boards and it is much appreciated by many readers. However, I actually think he may be sincere but he is too far removed from many Kenyan athletes to really comment from an informed position as to whether many Kenyan athletes are doping. Doping is a very intimate and clandestine practice. Still there is a pile of positive tests coming out of Kenya, and I almost fell sorry for them as obviously they are doing some testing whereas nations such as Ethiopia are doing next to nothing to address the problem and are likely getting away with much more cheating. I do agree with Canova that thinking or obsessing that all the best athletes are doping is not constructive when trying to reach your potential, even for amateur/hobby jogger runners.

There are still some knowledgeable coaches who frequent these boards and share their insights such as former sub 14 in recent times.