too hot 3- changing up the username again? Carry on... Nenow himself credits that 20 seconds to training adjustments. You don’t have to hijack OR’s thread.
too hot 3- changing up the username again? Carry on... Nenow himself credits that 20 seconds to training adjustments. You don’t have to hijack OR’s thread.
Pappy wrote:
Lydiard guys were building lactic and going anaerobic during their base phase. They just did it so that they were recovered quickly. They just didn't push hard enough to lower the blood pH. I think that "not going anaerobic or building lactate" are terms the older runners use that have slightly different meanings than what people have today. Maybe HRE could explain this better?
I don't want to get too deep into Lydiard because that is not the purpose of this thread but Pappy brings up a good point. When Lydiard said to avoid going anaerobic during the base phase he was referring to what we now know as the lactate threshold (approximately 1-hour race pace). There is ALWAYS an anaerobic contribution to energy production. Lydiard's guys were running fairly hard or steady during their evening runs but even over hills they had to keep it under control. Well, sometimes they did. In those days you had to feel your way through training and you would learn just as much from running too fast at times and not being able to recover properly.
The Stone Cutter wrote:
OR-
For the 1k repeats, if it makes things easier/safer/more manageable for you...one option that I like to do is find an uninterrupted stretch of road for the length of rep that I need. In this case, 1k. Run the first rep, noting where you started and where you finished. After you finish, continue jogging slowly for half of the recovery time. (You also have the option of doing a standing recovery, but I can't picture you stopping and standing). When half of the recovery time has elapsed, turn around and jog slowly back to where you finished - this will be the new "starting" line. Your "finish" line will be where you started the first time.
Knowing landmarks means you don't have to get too fixated on looking at your watch - you can focus more on form, breathing, sensations versus the watch. I also give myself a pretty broad range (goal time of repeat +/- 5 secs) so that again, it's not the exact time you focus on but the proper range of time.
Another benefit of running back and forth on the same stretch of road is that if the wind is against you in one direction, it favors you in another. You can also easier keep track of how many reps you have completed - "odds" will be in one direction, "evens" will be in the other direction.
And it doesn't matter if this stretch of road is straight, around a bend, up and over hills, etc. Just an uninterrupted 1k of road that you like.
Make sense?
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense--thanks. I am also looking into how I can use my Garmin (235) to run a pre-formatted interval workout with the watch (and use some of that GPS functionality that I have yet to try). I have a one-mile (and somewhat "turny") loop in my neighborhood (with some mild ups and downs) that I have used for various things, including some reps (when I was coached). So, the 1k reps should fit in nicely there, too.
Also...thank you, Allen for your input.
outsiderunner wrote:
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense--thanks. I am also looking into how I can use my Garmin (235) to run a pre-formatted interval workout with the watch (and use some of that GPS functionality that I have yet to try). I have a one-mile (and somewhat "turny") loop in my neighborhood (with some mild ups and downs) that I have used for various things, including some reps (when I was coached). So, the 1k reps should fit in nicely there, too.
Also...thank you, Allen for your input.
With a little playing around on Garmin Connect, you should be able to set up some simple workouts. There are many options for warmup/cooldown and interval time/distance and recovery. Here is one example of what I like to do.
Warmup until press lap button (that way I just roll into the workout whenever I get to the bike path or feel warmed up)
Run 1k
Recover 90 seconds
Set that to repeat X number of times
Cooldown until press lap button/stop
It's super nice and easy. The watch gives a gentle buzz at the beginning of each interval and rest period, so you really don't have to check the watch at all.
The watch will save your workouts, too. So right now I've got 5 different workouts that I most frequently rotate between. I'm a bit of a Luddite, so never thought I'd be into this. But I really dig it.
Thanks very much. I knew the watch thing would be complicated. Been trying for a while now to set it up for the 1k workout, but it does not seem to want to allow me to select kilometers (as opposed to miles) without changing the whole setup of the watch to kilometers. I am even on the phone with Garmin. She said I could not do a warm-up in miles and then select kilometers for the intervals. I was shocked by this. Crazy stuff for such an “advanced” watch.
Very funny! I thought of going to .62 while listening to some Rush a few minutes ago. I guess my mind is pretty slow sometimes. While we are at it, any other tips for dummies like me? Back to some more Rush for a bit, and then shower and to work...
Actually, I listened to some Simple Minds instead.
OR FTW!
Not a fast win by any stretch, but I ran my second (of the series of 8) Winter Series races this morning. Conditions were pretty bad...a cold, steady rain, dirt/gravel roads for most of the way, and of course hilly. Ran 18:06. Caught up to the lead pack of three h.s. kids at about 1.0, ran with then some, and then spotted a small hill coming up (at about 1.3), and dropped them on the incline. Just paced myself the rest of the way, wanting to get in out of the cold/wet. The second place guy finished 13 seconds back of me. He beat me by a few seconds in the 5k I ran two weeks ago. Slight negative split for me.
Ran the race and then went to work. Have a great day, guys.
Congrats on the win.
I had considered running a half marathon this morning on the same towpath you did your 20 miler. Would’ve been a mess!
I am 43 years old,similar base training like him,lots of progressive runs (many times tempo in the last 1/3).
My 3-5K times are soft compared to 10k and HM (last HM is 1:14:31,a week ago).
What works for me is a Lydiard type of hill phase,4 week of short hill bounding,weekly 3 times 1 hour + a long steady run.About 2min uphill bounds,about 100m jog, 50m downhill sprints, 150m jog.... repeat,after every 15min a few short strides/sprints.
One will emerge like a butterfly after a month.
Pappy wrote:
Smoove, Great response on the sharpening. I think that is exactly what happened with Nenow. If I remember correctly it was only for 6 weeks or so.
Lydiard guys were building lactic and going anaerobic during their base phase. They just did it so that they were recovered quickly. They just didn't push hard enough to lower the blood pH. I think that "not going anaerobic or building lactate" are terms the older runners use that have slightly different meanings than what people have today. Maybe HRE could explain this better?
I've often had the debate with other runners that trained in a Lydiard style. How do you run rolling hills at a steady pace and not build more lactate going up hills? Of course you have to be building more lactate and maybe go somewhat anaerobic.
I don't think we had lactate in those days. I think it was invented in the late 80s or early 90s. And "going anaerobic" meant getting out of breath which you weren't supposed to do if you were listening to Arthur and doing base work. So you'd run as fast as you could without getting out of breath and if you needed to slow down a bit, if. say, you were going up a hill, you would. The only thing Arthur ever said about pace in the base phase was to enjoy yourself. But if you were in a group with faster people you probably could find yourself getting a bit breathless.
HRE wrote:
The only thing Arthur ever said about pace in the base phase was to enjoy yourself.
I love that.
going faster miles an hour wrote:
HRE wrote:
The only thing Arthur ever said about pace in the base phase was to enjoy yourself.
I love that.
I love that saying too and it worked for me but I also knew a lot of people who enjoyed hammering to their detriment.
You make an important point (and one that may possibly have eluded me from time to time...). I suppose it's a matter of having the right kind of fun for where you're at. And letting things come to you without trying to force them, as you said on the training thread this week.
HRE wrote:
Pappy wrote:
Smoove, Great response on the sharpening. I think that is exactly what happened with Nenow. If I remember correctly it was only for 6 weeks or so.
Lydiard guys were building lactic and going anaerobic during their base phase. They just did it so that they were recovered quickly. They just didn't push hard enough to lower the blood pH. I think that "not going anaerobic or building lactate" are terms the older runners use that have slightly different meanings than what people have today. Maybe HRE could explain this better?
I've often had the debate with other runners that trained in a Lydiard style. How do you run rolling hills at a steady pace and not build more lactate going up hills? Of course you have to be building more lactate and maybe go somewhat anaerobic.
I don't think we had lactate in those days. I think it was invented in the late 80s or early 90s. And "going anaerobic" meant getting out of breath which you weren't supposed to do if you were listening to Arthur and doing base work. So you'd run as fast as you could without getting out of breath and if you needed to slow down a bit, if. say, you were going up a hill, you would. The only thing Arthur ever said about pace in the base phase was to enjoy yourself. But if you were in a group with faster people you probably could find yourself getting a bit breathless.
Lactate was discovered, not invented. It was discovered in the 1700's in milk and the early 1800's during exercise. By the early 1900's, it was known that production increased with intensity. Anyone who knew what what anaerobic and aerobic was knew how lactate production worked, Igloi even understood this. Lydiard understood it too because the definition of going anaerobic is lactate based, the words don't exist without each other. It's oxygen debt which is why someone would describe it as getting out of breath. To understand that, you have to know about lactate and lydiard did, he spoke many times about oxygen debt.
Stone - Do you think the Winter Series races can "fit in" with your training plan/format? There are six left, and all are Saturday races. I believe it is a race every other week, and so about two per month. The next race is on 12/29. All are 5k, except for the one 5-miler. All are hilly, except for one (in January).
Yeah. I know all that. But no one thought much about it. You'd talk about tying up with lactic acid in the last 50 yards of an all out quarter mile or jogging easily after a hard effort to get lactic acid out of your muscles more quickly. You either got out of breath or didn't or were somewhere in between. No one thought about dealing with lactate when they ran over rolling hills.
outsiderunner wrote:
Stone - Do you think the Winter Series races can "fit in" with your training plan/format? There are six left, and all are Saturday races. I believe it is a race every other week, and so about two per month. The next race is on 12/29. All are 5k, except for the one 5-miler. All are hilly, except for one (in January).
Yes, of course the races can fit in. All you have to do is plan around them. It makes it even easier that they are every other week.
Are you able to do your long runs on a weekday? If so, we’ll ditch the two “faster” days in favor of your race and shuffle the rest of the schedule around to accommodate for proper recovery.
In that scenario, here’s how the revised schedule looks:
Week 1
M- 6-10 miles easy
T- 14-18 easy
W- 4-6 easy
Th- 10-12 miles incorporating 6-8 miles of tempo running (6:00-6:15/mi), either continuous or broken.
F- 6-10 miles easy
Sa - 8-10 miles including 5k race
Su- 6-10 miles easy
Total: 54-76 miles
Week 2
M- 6-10 miles easy
T- 14-18 miles with the last 6-8 miles at marathon effort (6:05-6:15/mi).
W- 6-10 miles easy
Th- 6-10 miles easy
F- 10-12 miles incorporating 8-12 x 1km at 5:40-5:50/mi with :75 recovery jogs.
Sa- 6-10 miles easy
Su- Rest
Total: 48-70 miles.
If you can’t move your longer run to a weekday, we’ll plan your 5ks for the weeks you run 7 days and place the easy long run on the day after the 5ks. This should also force you to keep the long runs easy. Here’s how that scenario looks:
Week 1
M- 6-10 miles easy
T- 6-10 miles easy
W - 10-12 miles incorporating 6-8 miles of tempo running (6:00-6:15/mi), either continuous or broken.
Th - 6-10 miles easy
F- 6-10 miles easy
Sa- 8-10 miles with 5k race
Su- 14-18 miles easy
Total: 56-80 miles
Week 2
M- 4-6 miles easy
T- 8-10 miles incorporating 300-400m hill repeats. 8-14 x hill (“fast”) with easy jog down recoveries.
W- 6-10 miles easy
Th- 10-12 miles incorporating 8-12 x 1km at 5:40-5:50/mi with :75 recovery jogs.
F- 6-10 miles easy
Sa- 14-18 miles with the last 6-8 miles at marathon effort (6:05-6:15/mi).
Su- Rest
Total: 48-66 miles.
These are just two options. We could tinker more if need be. But yes, the value of the 5k series is worth moving the schedule around until the series is over.
The OR/SC alliance is now offically underway...10.13 at 7:23 overall this morning in the hills...7:51, 7:48, 7:26, 7:34, 7:24, 7:13, 7:24, 7:13, 7:00, 6:58, 0:56. It was nice. It pretty much felt like nothing, almost like still being in bed, except colder. Sorry about the 6:58 in the last mile, and I will try to keep to more of a 7:30 avg. pace next time.
I thank you for sending the adjusted schedules. Will have to balance everything with my work schedule, which will be a bit of a challenge, since Tues. and Thur. are currently my long days at work (9+ hours).
You are a kind man for doing this Stone, and I look forward to working with you.