casual obsever wrote:
Coevett wrote:
I must admit, it is somewhat troubling the fact that Coe, Ovett and Cram seem to 'like' El G, and for that matter, Aouita.
All of that can be easily understood by all of them being equally dirty (or clean for the fanbois here).
Similarly, no big coach is officially condemning the Rosas...
Ssssh! Renato will turn up here soon to do just that ?
Coevett wrote:
I think it would be very hard for Cram to have been commentating all these decades, countless discussion and interviews where he talks about doping, if he had been doping himself.
I know it's a truism that the worst dopers have often been the most strident 'anti-dopers', but reading and hearing Cram sounds convincing to me.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2006/aug/01/athletics.commentI would prefer to reduce the ban to an athlete found guilty of an offence in return for a sworn statement implicating a coach or manager which could be used to blacklist that individual. Any athlete working with such people would not be allowed to compete so reducing their appeal in the coaching market. Continuing to only seek out and punish the athletes is only doing half the job and worse still leaving the sport open to further damaging episodes somewhere down the line. To sit back and assume strong testing policies are a serious deterrent is failing to understand the sport and its participants. Many of its stars are young, ambitious and easily influenced. They come from deprived inner-city areas, remote parts of Africa, the heart of eastern Europe and not too many share the moral framework that the Western media think society and indeed sport should play within.
Kiprop says he didn’t do it. Kiprop says he’s anti-doping. He must be clean.
That’s your argument.
kdjk wrote:
Lots of talk of Coe and Conconi connection and blood doping back in 1980-1984
No there isn't. A couple of clowns basically start a rumour and have no evidence whatsoever to back it up. Anyone can go on a message board and start a thread which spins a lie as some sort of fact.
It is quite clear that those posters pin their colours to the mast by claiming how much they dislike Coe. Not objective at all. I gave up reading that thread after 2 pages due to ignorant comments and blatant lies. Coe snr was most certainly not a doctor as someone claims; he was in fact the manager of a cutlery factory.
Lydiard Cerutty wrote:
kdjk wrote:
Lots of talk of Coe and Conconi connection and blood doping back in 1980-1984
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=25908I have no doubt in my mind Coe blood doped (see his rare blood diseases he got). He was as dirty as the Finnish runners of the 70s/80s and Saïd Aouita.
More ignorant comments.
He had one 'blood disorder' not "diseases" plural as you wrote. And toxoplasmosis is most certainly not rare, it is one of the most common conditions in the world.
"Up to half of the world's population is infected by toxoplasmosis but have no symptoms. In the United States about 23% are affected and in some areas of the world this is up to 95%."
Millions of people have toxoplasmosis in their system from contamination from cats, soil or undercooked meat. Although people can be infected through contact with cat faeces, the far more common way for someone to have contact with the parasite that causes toxoplasmosis is through unhygienic handling of raw or undercooked meat, drinking contaminated water and exposure to garden soil or sandboxes where infected cats may have defecated.
'In the US, the most common way to get infected with the toxoplasmosis parasite is by eating raw meat or unwashed fruits and vegetables (Cornell, 2008).'
Fortunately, most people have been exposed to or infected by Toxoplasma and already have immunity to the disease. People with weakened immune systems run the greatest risk of contracting toxoplasmosis.
Those in relatively good health will usually show no signs or simply have mild, flu-like symptoms. About 10-20% of people infected with toxoplasmosis will develop symptoms similar to flu or glandular fever. “Symptoms usually appear a week or two after infection, wax and wane and then subside gradually over a period of two weeks to several months.”
http://www.nytimes.com/1982/10/27/garden/personal-health-247906.html?pagewanted=2Some people have swollen lymph glands or muscle aches and pains that last for a month or more. In healthy people who show symptoms, a flu-like feeling is the most common (which may result in the mistaken diagnosis of infectious mononucleosis)
. These symptoms also include:
• fever
• swollen lymph nodes, especially in the neck
• headache
• muscle aches and pains
Occasionally, patients may complain of a sore throat. These symptoms can last for a month or more.
http://www.healthline.com/health/toxoplasmosis#Symptoms3These are the symptoms Coe showed. He didn’t have severe toxoplasmosis, which effects the brain, eyes and organs.
Most people live with it without showing anything more than flu like symptoms. It can be serious if you put your body through physical stress. For an Olympic athlete training every day with a condition living off your energy sources, then it's going to result in a 1 or 2% drop in performance. That's the difference between winning in 1:42 and being in the middle of the pack in 1:45.
In addition, the practice in that period for blood transfusions by sportsmen was almost universally autologous blood doping. If he was putting his own blood back into his body then the only way he could have got it through blood transfusions would be from his own blood! Which means he must already have had it in his system through one of the regular means cited above.
Coe having toxoplasmosis is no indication at all of blood doping unless he was happy sharing used needles, which seems extremely far fetched. A total red herring.
Are you kidding me wrote:
Coevett wrote:
I think it would be very hard for Cram to have been commentating all these decades, countless discussion and interviews where he talks about doping, if he had been doping himself.
I know it's a truism that the worst dopers have often been the most strident 'anti-dopers', but reading and hearing Cram sounds convincing to me.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2006/aug/01/athletics.commentKiprop says he didn’t do it. Kiprop says he’s anti-doping. He must be clean.
That’s your argument.
Yeah, but Kiprop failed a test you moron. He also comes from a culture of doping where testers give advance warning and accept bribes, and yet despite this, athletes are getting busted regularly.
There is no reason to believe Cram was dirty other than your assumption that 'everybody is dirty', which is exactly that - an assumption not an argument.
ex-runner wrote:
I didn't run/wasn't born in any of these eras where dope was freely accessible. As I've said, I am still under 30 years old. Different, cleaner era when I was running, not like back then in the 80s and 90s.
I'm sorry, but if you're in your 20's, at your own admission, then how can you possibly state with such authority and conviction that the 80's was a dirty era?
You weren't competing then, so your opinions are not based on first hand experiences.
I remember at the time thinking it was a pretty decent record, taking 1.3s off of Morceli's time.
But with Geb was smashing and trading records so often, that 1500m time didn't seem like it would last 20 years.
That was early in El G's career. He'd go on to dominate another 6 years but never set another 1500m PR.
The impressive part of that record is that we still had El G, Ngeny and Lagat and then Kiprop all to hit their primes and it never went down.
Welsh Wizard wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
I didn't run/wasn't born in any of these eras where dope was freely accessible. As I've said, I am still under 30 years old. Different, cleaner era when I was running, not like back then in the 80s and 90s.
I'm sorry, but if you're in your 20's, at your own admission, then how can you possibly state with such authority and conviction that the 80's was a dirty era?
You weren't competing then, so your opinions are not based on first hand experiences.
With the same authority that everyone else here who never ran competitively in that era does. Which is everyone posting, btw.
Coevett claims to have picked up athletics at 47 so unless he is currently about 85 years old then he has no more authority than me.
ex-runner wrote:
Welsh Wizard wrote:
I'm sorry, but if you're in your 20's, at your own admission, then how can you possibly state with such authority and conviction that the 80's was a dirty era?
You weren't competing then, so your opinions are not based on first hand experiences.
With the same authority that everyone else here who never ran competitively in that era does. Which is everyone posting, btw.
Coevett claims to have picked up athletics at 47 so unless he is currently about 85 years old then he has no more authority than me.
The difference is, you repeatedly claim that your experience as an athlete (including competing as a runner at the GB Championships) gives your opinions authority.
You also boasted that it was easy to cheat at British Miler's events, and that every athlete will take any opportunity to dope if he feels he can get away with it.
Now you're backtracking and saying your era was clean and the 80's dirty, an era which you have less knowledge of than me (you were hilariously mixing up names and making false statements regarding Moscow 80), likely in order to avoid admitting you cheated.
I've a feeling you were a 400m or even 200m sprinter who hung out with Dwaine and the like, and on that basis assume that all British runners of all distances have always doped. The fact that you stated that 'none of us (except you) know what it's like to run 2 minutes for the 800m' suggests that you weren't an 800m runner but could run respectable times in training or the occasional race.
Deanouk wrote:
Nips and tatties wrote:
But when your favourites run faster than the obvious dopers they are not dopers, right?
I like and have followed Coe and Ovett as well as some Kenyan runners.
There are Kenyan dopers and there are British dopers.
You just seem to see one side of things.
I have to agree totally with Coevett on this one. There is a lot more evidence that Ngeny doped than the Brits of the 80’s.
For a start Ngeny beat El G , who was most certainly doped. The likelihood that the 3 fastest 1500/milers of all time happened to run in an era when EPO was undetectable, is highly unlikely.
Ngeny had an 800pb of 1:44 mid, yet could run that and another 200 on the end at the same pace!
He was part of the MacDonald/ Dieter Hogen stable that had some dubious history. Hogen was husband to Ute Pippig, the Marathon runner who was found with peds in her sample in the late 90’s. He was also a training partner and member is f same training group as Olaf Beyer and Juergen Straub back in the day; the former listed on Stasi files as part as f state sponsored doping programme.
There have been countless rumoursthat Ngeny failed a drug test for EPO at the Sydney Olympics in 2000, but was let off for fear of what such a ban would create. Of course I have never seen concrete evidence of this, but his last minute scratch from Kenya’s World Champs team in 2001 at the 11th hour and the subsequent car accident, that stopped him from training fully, although not enough to stop him running 3:33!?, does fit in with the possibility that he was warned about the doping violation but failed to stop doping.
I can’t think of a scenario where a serious injury can stop you running 3:28/3:43 in future, but is t bad enough to run a 3:33. His meteoric rise and then equally sudden decline and subsequent retirement is quite reminiscent of Komen. Again, this doesn’t represent proof, but there is certainly quite a bit of circumstantial evidence to make him more likely to have doped in comparison with Coe and Ovett.
You know a lot about many things. Here? Not at all.
Look at the highlighted words...
You are all "ifs".
You should go back to measuring how many millimeters some runner has run wide on the bends.
Deanouk wrote:
The likelihood that the 3 fastest 1500/milers of all time happened to run in an era when EPO was undetectable, is highly unlikely.
The 3 fastest british middle distance runners happened to be born within 5 years. The 4 fastest ever were running in the same era.
Coevett wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
With the same authority that everyone else here who never ran competitively in that era does. Which is everyone posting, btw.
Coevett claims to have picked up athletics at 47 so unless he is currently about 85 years old then he has no more authority than me.
The difference is, you repeatedly claim that your experience as an athlete (including competing as a runner at the GB Championships) gives your opinions authority.
You also boasted that it was easy to cheat at British Miler's events, and that every athlete will take any opportunity to dope if he feels he can get away with it.
Now you're backtracking and saying your era was clean and the 80's dirty, an era which you have less knowledge of than me (you were hilariously mixing up names and making false statements regarding Moscow 80), likely in order to avoid admitting you cheated.
I've a feeling you were a 400m or even 200m sprinter who hung out with Dwaine and the like, and on that basis assume that all British runners of all distances have always doped. The fact that you stated that 'none of us (except you) know what it's like to run 2 minutes for the 800m' suggests that you weren't an 800m runner but could run respectable times in training or the occasional race.
You are simply putting words in my mouth. I've never said my experience of championship running means that I know more about doping in the 80s than anyone here. Nobody here has first hand experience of elites in the 80s unless they are Peter Coe or George Gandy.
The only time I've EVER referred to my own experiences is when talking about training, peaking for championships, and the entry/selection process around the British champs.
Everything else is a figment of your imagination. Just like this stuff you keep posting about me doping. Literally never even hinted at that. You just totally made it up, like 90% of your arguments.
I simply said I don't know of anyone including myself that was ever tested at a BMC meeting, that doesn't mean I doped. I've nothing to backtrack from.
You are actually mentally unwell and decided that I'm Dwain Chambers and started actually calling me Dwain. Something's wrong with you. No wonder you can't follow an argument.
ex-runner wrote:
Coevett wrote:
The difference is, you repeatedly claim that your experience as an athlete (including competing as a runner at the GB Championships) gives your opinions authority.
You also boasted that it was easy to cheat at British Miler's events, and that every athlete will take any opportunity to dope if he feels he can get away with it.
Now you're backtracking and saying your era was clean and the 80's dirty, an era which you have less knowledge of than me (you were hilariously mixing up names and making false statements regarding Moscow 80), likely in order to avoid admitting you cheated.
I've a feeling you were a 400m or even 200m sprinter who hung out with Dwaine and the like, and on that basis assume that all British runners of all distances have always doped. The fact that you stated that 'none of us (except you) know what it's like to run 2 minutes for the 800m' suggests that you weren't an 800m runner but could run respectable times in training or the occasional race.
You are simply putting words in my mouth. I've never said my experience of championship running means that I know more about doping in the 80s than anyone here. Nobody here has first hand experience of elites in the 80s unless they are Peter Coe or George Gandy.
The only time I've EVER referred to my own experiences is when talking about training, peaking for championships, and the entry/selection process around the British champs.
Everything else is a figment of your imagination. Just like this stuff you keep posting about me doping. Literally never even hinted at that. You just totally made it up, like 90% of your arguments.
I simply said I don't know of anyone including myself that was ever tested at a BMC meeting, that doesn't mean I doped. I've nothing to backtrack from.
You are actually mentally unwell and decided that I'm Dwain Chambers and started actually calling me Dwain. Something's wrong with you. No wonder you can't follow an argument.
Bull. You said that everybody dopes if they have an opportunity too, and you've admitted you had an opportunity at BMC meetings.
You've repeatedly used your experience as an athlete to imply that you have more knowledge on whether Africans like Tim are doping or not.
I'd say its 90% certain that you were the guy who was threatening me the other day. Either side of your post, within minutes of yours, even using the same language as you use (such as 'mate'). Either it was one of your split personalities or the troll that has been threatening me is trying to make it look as though he is you.
Coevett wrote:
Bull. You said that everybody dopes if they have an opportunity too, and you've admitted you had an opportunity at BMC meetings.
You've repeatedly used your experience as an athlete to imply that you have more knowledge on whether Africans like Tim are doping or not.
I'd say its 90% certain that you were the guy who was threatening me the other day. Either side of your post, within minutes of yours, even using the same language as you use (such as 'mate'). Either it was one of your split personalities or the troll that has been threatening me is trying to make it look as though he is you.
You are a bit creative, aren't you? :)
On a serious note, I haven't read a single threat against you.
OK, one guy posted something, I think, wishing you bad luck in life or something, but that's not exactly a threat.
And don't just say that someone threatened to kill your (hypothetical) children. Or provide a quote where that is clearly stated.
As someone who has been threatened twice in the past 4 years, I would like to do something about this.
Why has it been 20 years? Better drug testing has stopped all the drug cheats?
Nips and tatties wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Bull. You said that everybody dopes if they have an opportunity too, and you've admitted you had an opportunity at BMC meetings.
You've repeatedly used your experience as an athlete to imply that you have more knowledge on whether Africans like Tim are doping or not.
I'd say its 90% certain that you were the guy who was threatening me the other day. Either side of your post, within minutes of yours, even using the same language as you use (such as 'mate'). Either it was one of your split personalities or the troll that has been threatening me is trying to make it look as though he is you.
You are a bit creative, aren't you? :)
On a serious note, I haven't read a single threat against you.
OK, one guy posted something, I think, wishing you bad luck in life or something, but that's not exactly a threat.
And don't just say that someone threatened to kill your (hypothetical) children. Or provide a quote where that is clearly stated.
As someone who has been threatened twice in the past 4 years, I would like to do something about this.
I've had threats of physical violence, doxxing, and the issuer of one those threats asked me - "what about your children, Coevett?"
Star wrote:
I remember at the time thinking it was a pretty decent record, taking 1.3s off of Morceli's time.
But with Geb was smashing and trading records so often, that 1500m time didn't seem like it would last 20 years.
That was early in El G's career. He'd go on to dominate another 6 years but never set another 1500m PR.
The impressive part of that record is that we still had El G, Ngeny and Lagat and then Kiprop all to hit their primes and it never went down.
And the Monaco track.
When was the current Mondo track laid down at Monaco? It's only in the last 10 years that it's been producing the fastest times.
As Deano and others have pointed out many times, the decline in times since the EPO era would be even more obvious without the Monaco performances.
Coevett, the new Monaco track is no more suspicious than the old Rieti track where Coe and Ovett have run their fastest time
1500m runner! wrote:
Why has it been 20 years? Better drug testing has stopped all the drug cheats?
No, that record happened to be ahead of it's time.
Since 1998, there have been 10 other performances that were faster than Morceli's record.
It's been 17 years since the second fastest time and 3 years since the 5th fastest.
I do not think the athletes are really any cleaner.
But if you look at race patterns, today's runners simply do not make many attempts at fast times every year.
El G went 3:30.00 or better 7 times in one year.
You don't even see anyone attempting 7 fast races at all in one year anymore. Not even sub 3:40.
Centro will put up one fast time a year, if that.
You saw a short period where Kiprop and Kiplagat would push each other in a few fast races each year.
Makloufi didn't make many fast attempts.
It's not drug testing, it's a different approach to the season.
In championship years, everyone does a couple of races to get sharp and then try to peak at the championship.
I don't know why off years like this don't produce more fast times. There is no reason to hold back.
I simply said I don't know of anyone including myself that was ever tested at a BMC meeting, that doesn't mean I doped. I've nothing to backtrack from.
Dope tests cost money, which is limited and needs to be targeted. I too haven't heard of dope tests at BMC meetings, big open meetings or British Leagues, either in late 80s/early 90s when I was competing, or recently. I don't think there's any country in the world that could afford to do this.