About to find out if a slow 30yr old can run a sub 11 100m.

Are you sure about the accuracy of your 30m and 60m splits?

Because if that is accurate, it means that your flying 30m from 30 to 60 was slower than your 30m from blocks. I've never seen a runner with such terrible speed endurance that their flying 30 was slower than their 30m including RT and acceleration.

That is a huge difference. I would expect somebody who can run 4.09 for a FAT 30m to be able to run close to 3 flat for a flying 30m, at least 3.3 at the slowest.

Sdfsdfsdfsdfsdfsdf wrote:

Are you sure about the accuracy of your 30m and 60m splits?

Because if that is accurate, it means that your flying 30m from 30 to 60 was slower than your 30m from blocks. I've never seen a runner with such terrible speed endurance that their flying 30 was slower than their 30m including RT and acceleration.

That is a huge difference. I would expect somebody who can run 4.09 for a FAT 30m to be able to run close to 3 flat for a flying 30m, at least 3.3 at the slowest.

Pretty sure, despite being new to sprinting it seems strange to me too.

At the start of my sprint session, my 0-30m times (FAT with RT) are around 4.8sec and I'm usually able to get it down to the 4.3s. 4.09s was my fastest. I use the my Freelap timing for every interval, aside from the warmup and my numbers seem quite consistent over the past month.

I double checked by using a touchpad at the start (you rest your thumb on it, while in the blocks, and as soon as you remove it, the timer starts) to check my times without RT. I believe I got a 4.2sec, not the quickest interval, but it shows I'm not cheating by going before the gun.

I also checked my 0-10m splits and got 2.15sec (with RT) and slightly under 2s (around 1.95sec) without RT.

Something is definitely up after the first 30m. Whether it's inflexibility/stiffness from injury, poor technique, speed endurance, I'm going to figure out what it is and work on it.

How are things going, JD? Would love to see an update from you, as I like those crazy goals myself as well.

Hi

Been a while. I have been training, but not as much as I'd like, that should change though.

I started getting some issues in my ankle again and during my holiday in California, I went for a gait analysis and had 2 sessions

with a track coach who competed in the world junior games. During the gait analyses, I learned what the root of my problem was... my glute meds are underdeveloped and my calves are a bit weak. Years of focusing on squats and deadlifts meant my glute max and quads were very strong, but my glute meds were underdeveloped. This meant, I couldn't access the power in my glutes and was running in a way that was not only inefficient, but also placed a lot of strain on the knees and ankle. I've been focusing on strengthening my glute meds and calves and things have been going well, though there's still a lot of work to be done.

The track coach said my biggest issue was my speed endurance, I get gassed too early and I'm not able to get many max sprint sessions out of a workout (so general fitness too). I've still got a few months of good weather so I'm saving the speed endurance and special endurance training for the off season (December to early Feb in my area) and just focusing on doing as much max speed sprinting as possible with speed endurance days thrown in once or twice a week.

Again, I'm planning to focus heavily on strengthening my glute meds and gaining speed endurance during the off season too. Right now, I'd say I'm about 20-25% of the way to strengthening my glute meds and calves to the point that they're no longer a limiting factor.

All times FAT (Freelap timer)

March, my PB was 13.87sec

No training till July (pretty much sitting on my butt)

July

14.52

14.40

13.87

13.53

Time off didn't want to risk further injury, did gait analyses

Late September till now

13.60

13.71

13.42 New PB

I feel that I've got plenty of room to improve and my body feels great. I seem to be hitting PBs every few weeks, but more importantly my average times are consistently getting lower. I'm hoping to crack into the 12s before the end of the year.

My start and first 30m are definitely my strong points and late acceleration and max velocity still seem weak, but there's are issues I'm really going to be able to tackle during the off season.

I'm more motivated than ever and still believe that final goal of sub11 one day is possible.

Who did you work with in California? What part of the state were you in?

It still blows my mind that your first 30 is significantly faster than mine, but your 100m PR is 2 seconds slower than mine.

Also, if you share a training log or sample week, might be able to give better advice on that, too.

I'm sure it's been said before but 11 flat is very, very fast measured against the general population.

Appreciate that you're still following and always value experienced input.

I don't know if my 0-30m of 4.09sec was a freak or not timed properly, but over the past month I've run my 0-30m between 4.4sec -4.6sec, all FAT and including reaction time. So, take those as my real numbers.

My routine changes week by week depending on a number of factors. Firstly, how does my body feel on Sunday. If any body part, particularly my ankle feels sore, I usually run on Saturdays only and focus on glute med and calf isolation exercises as well as some core work for the rest of the week. Second, how I performed (I record myself running max velocity and/or starts) and try to analyse my drive phase and front side mechanics and see if I can pick up weaknesses to focus on for the coming work.

From now till December 1st, the focus is on improving impulse (ability to produce maximal force within a limited time-frame), so I'm doing as many 100m sprints at max intensity as I can. Secondly, I'm focusing on strengthening my weak glute meds.

Typically, my week is:

Monday - Core work

Tuesday - 400m jog

- 20min Warmup (comprised of drills like A-skips etc.)

- 3X 10m block starts, 1X 30m 1X60m 2X100m (all close to max intensity)

- 400m jog

- Glute med strengthening (resistance band, clam shells, standing fire hydrants etc.)

Wednesday - 400m jog

- 20min Warmup

- 800m, 2X400m, 4X200m (all at 50% and 30-60sec rest between)

- single leg calf raises 6X15 each side

- core work

Thursday - 400m jog

- 20-30min mini hurdle drills on grass

- Glute med strengthening (resistance band, clam shells, standing fire hydrants etc.)

Friday - Stretches

Saturday - 400m jog

- 20min Warmup (comprised of drills like A-skips etc.)

3X 10m block starts, 1X 30m 1X60m 4X100m (all close to max intensity)

I do cooldowns after every workout. I've found that I can't get times close to my PR if I don't give myself at least 3 days recovery between max speed sessions. The last week of each month, I try to take it easy during the week and go for a PB on the Saturday.

As said, this routine changes based on how I feel or what I think I need to work on.

Those 0-30 times makes a lot more sense. Still a bit faster than your flying 30, but makes more sense.

Regarding your workouts, do you do exactly that every week? Because doing the exact same workouts every week definitely leads to staleness and less improvement. Maybe that is just a representative week?

Anyway, right now you have basically a pure aerobic day on Wednesday. Tuesday and Saturday you are doing about 2/3rds of an acceleration day combined with 2/3rds of a speed endurance day. The rest of the days you are doing core or ancillary work.

Aerobic work isnt pointless in sprint training, but many programs dont include a day like that at all. Most would instead do an extra day of something more specific to the event.

You have zero tempo running. No modern succesful sprint programs are entirely devoid of tempo running. Some only do it maybe once a week while others include is 3 or more times a week, but nobody leaves it out entirely.

You have two days with both speed endurance and acceleration work. It isnt unheard of to mix acceleration with another energy system, but mixing it with speed endurance is a prettt bad idea. It is going to make you sore and beat up feeling with very little benefit.

Two days of speed endurance in one week is also unusual, I would only expect to see that at the very end of the year, a few weeks before the peak meet for the season. Speed endurance is very taxing and really is the "icing on the cake" for 100m runners.

Have you put any thought into introducing some seasonality into your training? That would allow you to structure multiple cycles that build on each other. It seems like you currently are training semi randomly and constantly trying to run your fastest 100m as self-timed by freelap. Are there any meets you can enter where you live? Are they in the spring time? Summer?

Quick note: good to hear you are still going, and healthy.

Impulse training is useful but all-out 100’s are not the best way, due to different energies during different phases. All-out force can be more valuable in the first 10-15m.

Very important is learning HOW to sprint. Might sound stupid, but it’s true. It is not running.

The best way I can illustrate it is by example: memorize how Collins, Powell, Gatlin, Lemaitre sprint at speed, and try to replicate each one until you have got them down. You will feel valuable sensation that will not only highlight your strengths and weaknesses, but will give you some idea of what your optimum achievable personal form will be.

Same on acceleration: Collins, Powell, Greene, Thompson, and on start: Johnson, Powell, Collins, Greene.

Look at them very closely, and learn how to do it. Sprinting isn’t about just all-guns-blazing, it is about smoothness, control, relaxation. Watch cycling actions like ADG, and learn WHEN to apply force and when to relax. Look at Bromell’s entire race for the full package as a model—try to do as he does, even if you cannot do it at full speed it will be valuable for your body’s learning.

Now that you have a base in strength and explosiveness you should be able to do this sort of thing. Once you get it, it’s way easier. I am in my 50’s, and although never a huge talent, can still relatively easily bust out a 12-flat at any moment, off not much training and just easy effort, just off smarts and muscle memory, and the right training history. As soon as you realize that it’s not running, and when you get enough understanding of your body to replicate what others do, you will arrive at the point where you can make good gains with what you already have.

If you can sprint 12.00 FAT at any moment while in your 50's, you were a sub-10.75 sprinter while in your early twenties. As a former coach you know this fella is not going to break 11 FAT. He won't break 12 FAT. He went from 15+ 100m to 13+ 100m. Maybe he gets down to 12-something. That will be it.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.

BUT we now know more about him than we did before. He has trained a bit, and appears mostly healthy. Earlier I suggested that he set his sights on sub-12, and I think that is still where his goal should lie.

Nothing wrong with goals, and guys like us have been known to be wrong?

Looking back on this page, I see that niggles started and that he had to take a break, just as I predicted would happen. Sprinting is tough, and he needs, above all else, to stay uninjured.

I wish him the best

I am convinced most here on letsrun have no track & field background. I am sure the majority of letsrun are former JV high school XC runners who did not participate in high school track & field plus new comers to running who never participated in high school XC and also never participated in high school track & field.

@ Sdfsdfsdfsdfsdfsdf

No, I don't do this every week. My routine changes every week.

My routine right now is more a final push to get the best result I can by the start of December.

From what I've learned, it seems there're are conflicting schools of thought regarding sprint training philosophy, particularly regarding the traditional style and modern. Some things from traditional sprint programmes make no sense to me and as such. I ignore them. Here's what I believe (at the moment) and what I consider when training, of course, I'm completely open to changing my mind:

- The most important trait a sprinter has is neuromuscular coordination and a fast/powerful rate of impulse. Neuromuscular coordination is the ability to rapidly contract and immediately relax said myself, allowing to muscles to work antagonistically. Impulse is the ability to exert maximal force within a limited time (around 0.10 seconds for sprinters). Both have a significant

genetic factor, you're born with it. However, while it's a long a difficult process, they can be trained. They're trained by... sprinting at max intensity. So, my belief is that the more I sprint at max intensity, the faster I develop my impulse and NC. Of course, sprinting at max intensity requires the CNS to be fully recovered, so I'm kind of experimenting to find the optimal number of days I can sprint max intensity in a week period.

I don't go into a speed session with the idea that I'm going to run 'X' amount of 100m sprints and call it a day, I time every interval, have 8-10min rest between intervals, and stop when I run slower than my previous lap/feel fatigue kicking in. So, I usually run between 2-4 100m on a Saturday, with my 2nd or 3rd run being my fastest for the day.

- I don't really believe in tempo runs. I've been reading Charlie Francis's books and I have to agree with him, running between 50%-90% intensity is useless, as you're getting the worst of both worlds. I prefer special endurance, running intervals of 800m and 400m, at 50% intensity with limited rest (around 30sec). I do it for active recovery and general conditioning so I can train longer and maintain my top end speed for a little longer. Alternatively, I also like to double up my warmup and add some mini wicket drills as they help with technique as well as conditioning and active recovery.

Having played guitar for 20yrs, and also having focused on building picking and playing speed, the philosophy seems the same as sprinting. You never develop speed by practicing at medium speed. You gradually warm up and play short speed best as fast as you can. When fatigue kicks in, you stop. Over time, your hands become more relaxed at high speeds and you get faster.

Back to my training...

It's early Winter here in Korea and I have till the beginning of December to spend on the track, so I suppose it's gearing towards the end of my season. I'm trying to crack into the 12s before then, hence the focus on speed and impulse.

December to early Feb, I'll be focusing on the weights, biomechanics, and more special endurance based work and tapering off to plyometrics before hitting the track again in Feb/March.

I'm beginning to understand what you mean.

During sprinting, I'm starting to feel increasingly more aware of what I'm doing, more relaxed and more in control. At moments, during my sprints, I've been getting the feeling more and more that although I'm running all out, there's another gear there and I'm not running as fast as I can.

I think form is a combination of active technique as well as biomechanics.

I like focusing on top end during my speed endurance days, when I run 150m flat out, I get an awareness of what I'm doing. For example, I noticed my head and vision seems to jolt from side to side a but much during top end running, meaning my core needs more strengthening to hold my trunk in place. The top end speed days develop impulse, but with the use of my camera as well, it's diagnostic in nature.

The difference is that while I get niggles in my ankle, I know the cause and the niggles are far more manageable than they were.

I've strengthened the muscle in question to the point that I can still train. December and January will be the time when I focus on really fixing the issue.

I feel that my true training is only starting now.

Thanks so much for the input.

So your theory is that you should do 50% or slower, or 100% of max speed? I bet you can't point to any elite programs that do that.

Every single program focuses on training to train, that isn't a novel concept.

You're telling me that Charlie Francis recommended doing intervals as long as 800m with recoveries as short as 30s in the end of the season? I find the hard to believe. In fact, here is the first article I found on his site when I searched for it. He recommends 3 tempos a week in the off season:

https://www.charliefrancis.com/blogs/news/test

Charlie Francis passed away in 2010, so I don't really follow what's on his forums, only his books. The information I'm referring to is all over his book "The Structure of Training for Speed"

The following is quoted from the book:

"Experiments in 1980 into the benefits of medium intensity runs confirmed this hypothesis. Intermediate speed work caused interference with the quality of special endurance runs and caused too much volume on the track, as medium intensity runs were too fast to be done on grass. While you should expressly discouraged from performing medium intensity speed work, if you decide for whatever reason to venture into the intermediate speed area, you should make sure that they are performed in place of a high intensity session, rather than a tempo session. There is no way an athlete can recover from intermediate speed work to perform high intensity speed work the following day. Low intensity (tempo) runs are a vital component of a speed training system. They do not tax the CNS, and result in little muscular fatigue as well. Although some claim that because they are not specific to a training objective, low intensity runs may also be eliminated from a training system, they have proven to have a number of training benefits.

Francis, Charlie. The Structure of Training for Speed (Charlie Francis Training Key Concepts Book 1) (Kindle Locations 239-243). . Kindle Edition.

High intensity runs are the "bread and butter" of a speed regimen, but low intensity runs play an important role on "low" days in that 48hour minimum recovery interval. Medium intensity runs, again, have no place in sprint training.

Francis, Charlie. The Structure of Training for Speed (Charlie Francis Training Key Concepts Book 1) (Kindle Locations 258-259). . Kindle Edition.

Medium intensity (50-90%) is too fast to maintain over longer periods to be as effective at recovery as low intensity (50%) and too fast for CNS recovery. It's also too slow for speed development as it retards neuromuscular development by teaching your body to become used to a lower rate of impulse.

My speed emphasise is simple, teach your body to sprint fast by always sprinting fast and recover by running at 50% or lower to get more blood to those muscles so they can recover and you can get back to sprinting fast again ASAP.

Update (May 14th 2019)

At the beginning of the month, with a 3ms crosswind and FAT I ran a 12.69. I ran again in the opposite direction and got a 12.79. I've adjusted my technique a little and it seems to be working:

- I focus on taking very large steps during the drive phase

- I've adjusted my blocks

- When coming out the drive phase, I keep a very slight forward lean. The person who gave me my gait analysis told me that

I was quad dominant and a slight forward lean would help my utilise my hip muscles and it seems to be working.

I wasn't in the best shape and feel I can go faster if I keep working on my mechanics and speed endurance.

My ankle is still a problem, but it's manageable. I cycle my training with one month one the track and one month off and it seems to be fine. My endurance isn't that great as running long distances and for long sessions gives the most issues, so I've started using an exercise bike for endurance.

My goals for this year are mid to low 12s.

If I can break 12 before the end of the year, I'll be very happy.