Does Training in Minimalist Shoes = Faster Racing?

runningingsandiego wrote:

Actually, if you pay attention to what he is saying. he is not saying listen to me I know all. He believes that this can help some people and explains that this is an option for some. There are many options to take when trying to stay injury free. HE is simply trying to look out for our fellow brotherhood of runners and provide more options. He cares more about others than himself. hence why you have to respect the man.

If you think this you haven't read too many of his posts. In reply to me he compares running in anything non-minimalist to eating a bad diet. In other words, you may do ok, but it is IN SPITE of your choice of shoes...ie they're not good for you. He is in no way agreeing that minimalist shoes are an option...to him they are the ONLY option for EVERYONE.

If you think I am interpreting what he says wrong, lets have Trackhead answer two questions with a simple yes or no...no convoluted dissertations to try and talk his way around the question:

1) Are minimalist shoes the best way for EVERYONE to train (run all workouts in)?

2) If you have no problems in trainers, is it fine to simply continue using them?

My guess is you will not be able to get a "no" for #1 out of him with the help of some of Saddam's interrogators. Hence I am correct...unless he can answer no for it.

JY, thank you for a well-written and sensible post. I don't know why it is so hard for some to accept that not all of us are served by the same shoes.

While they're at it, why don't they give us the marathon training program that is perfect for each and every one of us? That would be even more useful.

1) No. I saw a guy that fell 100ft off a cliff, hitting stuff on the way. His foot was totally reconstructed. His foot has been disabled. As I've stated before, there are more than 6,000,000,000 people on the earth and not all come as planned -- but most do.

I will say this: it's best to train and race in the same shoe (no adjustments), it's best to be as low to the ground as possible and it's best to have as little drop from heel to toe.

2) You write as if I am trying to convert people in an attempt to sell time shares. I'm not out to sell anything -- what I am out to do is to open minds to the idea that there is such a thing as too much shoe and that the feet of most people are find on their own.

I have seen lots of people with various injuries who followed conventional wisdom and got more shoe, inserts, etc and nothing was getting better. I put them in less shoe and -- holy crap, Batman! -- the problems went away. But what I know is that for every person I get into less shoe and stop interfering with their foot, there are hundred who quit racing/running because they're not going anywhere. And that's more of our sport down the drain.

AH wrote:

JY, thank you for a well-written and sensible post. I don't know why it is so hard for some to accept that not all of us are served by the same shoes.

While they're at it, why don't they give us the marathon training program that is perfect for each and every one of us? That would be even more useful.

This post gives light to your perspective. You see my pushing of minimalist shoes as pushing a single plan for all and it's foolish to right a plan and say, "everyone do this and it will be okay." Ok.

To me, a person who is simply in need of unnatural devices like high heeled shoes is akin to a human who is allergic to celery. Yes, doubtless they exist, but they are a relatively small % of the population (or their condition is a result from actions in life -- obesity, permanent injury, etc).

Then you agree with me that some people are well served by minimalist shoes but some might need more? Great. I have no problem with that. However for agreeing with me it seems you've given a lot of criticism to the fact that I support some people not going minimalist if it feels that it works fine for them.

As for it being a relatively small % of the population, I have issues with you making this statement giving that you've admitted that there is a lack of credible research on this subject. I think this percentage is larger than you want to admit, but I don't know it either. You say that it is better to train in the shoes you race in, but again there is a severe lack of real evidence of this. I'll agree it makes sense to do some training in them, but exclusively? There's no basis for this.

Maybe it works for you, but I just got back from my second run this week in minimal shoes. As usual my legs are beat up and very tired...not my calves, my quads. I've been doing this for several years (2X per week) and the so-called "adjustments" never happen.

Frist off have you ever tried training using the a he advice to Lyidard? I happen to have, and I can say that he know a great deal more about running equipment then he is given credit for.

A little about my training, I am getting ready for Chi. So I am doing a good deal of miles trying to hit 150 a week over very hilly runs. Also with doing 5-10 hill sprints all out, with flying 40s at the bottem.

Now the frist thing that I found, was the less shue that I had on my foot the better!. As far as your science, studys that have been done. You can look in runners times, so that the feet ajust to not having running shues on and become more springy and also change the way the deal with the pounding. Three times a week on my rest days I run for 90 min in he Am and 60 min in the Pm on grass bare foot. And I can tell you that my feet much stronger and more sponsive. And the bottems of my feet something I never noticed and a lot more effect on running then I thought.

As far as my longer runs, I hit 3hrs eveyother day on cemint using a heart rate monotor to at 145 for most of the runs. Then a hard Ten K, three times a week at the 120 min mark of he run. And I can tell you that my form and also physical stammia just as my feet are springs has gotten much better. Run on hard serface!, Romans did it in sandles and had no issues hitting 20 miles a day!. Run fast 2-3 times a week, when Hadd gets someone under 2:10 then I will have more faith in slow slow slow. And rember if you out brincks on your feet they are going to change your form and make you slower.

Are you KIDDING ME you've been wearing racing flats for 2 years 2x a week and you are still waiting for some miracle to happen. I don't beleive anyone recommending a minimalist approach to footwear has ever said (train only 2x per week and you will eventially see some miraculus results). Please tell me your joking? right?

Are you saying you run on road all the time?

I won't tell you I'm kidding but I will tell you how stupid you are. The minimalists claim you just need to acclimate to training in flats and that it will work. My point is that I have been running a portion of my week in flats for years and have never made any progress towards being able to do more in them (without getting small injuries).

Only IQs over 80 reply please.

No kidding. Twice per week and complaining of no adjustments? You sound like Richard.

Anyway, I started it up recently and have completed the last 8 days in distance runs and AT runs in racing flats. I feel better and more efficient when I run. I'm not advocating it; I just thought I'd try it out. My legs were sore and beat up but not anymore. Honestly, I feel better efficiency wise than I ever have. Will this make me race faster? I doubt it but it sure makes the training go by smoother.

You aren't committed to honestly trying this approach. Its like your going out on a golf course and making radical changes to your swing 2 of every seven rounds you play and then complaining that the new swing isn't working. If there's a big difference in heel height and structure between your trainers and your twice a week shoes,I am not at all surprised its not working for you.

Thirty years ago everyone ran in what you'd call minimalist shoes and there was a relatively small number of people who had problems. Most of us were just fine. So while there may be a lack of research on this subject, there is some historical evidence. And the "average" runner in those days ran more than the average runner today does, though today's average runner is likely older than the one from past years. Periodically, you'd get hurt, rest for a bit and go again.

It's also not too hard to turn your argument around. There is also no credible research that today's conventional trainers reduce injuries.

I was truly hopeing you were joking, but since it doesn't appear that you were then let me expand on why I feel you have not experienced the same benefits that many others have experienced. The key to why anyone can run barefoot or with a minimal amount of shoe on their foot is because they adapt their form to allow for their bodies to direct the forces of impact and stabilization to the muscles and tendons that are intended to perform the task. You are an example of why not everyone should immediately switch from thick trainers to minimal trainers. If your form was improving at all you would have experience some of the benefits of wearing less shoe, but appearently your form is continuing to land to hard for your body to make the necessary adjustments needed to absorb shock and stabilize the body. If you would take a better approach than the one you are doing then you to could see the benefits of wearing little or no shoe while walking/running.

BTW- I have switched from wearing regular thick training shoes to now running in minimal footwear. And guess what? my body has adapted just like the many other lets run posters who have wisely and safely made the switch. I hope instead of calling names you will learn to think about the choices you make in your training a little better in the future. Good luck.

I only run barefoot on hot coals. My feet are stronger and I am running great, everyone should do it. Sometimes I stick myself in the eye with a needle it's making my vision better, you should do it. Everyone will benefit from these things, everyone. I am not going to stop talking about it, I am going to convince the world.

That's funny!! I always love getting a laugh on the boards now and again. Do you have anything serious to say in regards to wearing minimal shoe while walking/running.

My own personal experience (not that any of you care). When I first started running 100+ per week (yeh I know, I shouldn't do that) I was wearing nike max moto, and every day my calves would just feel beat up, so i ran in a shoe without a polyurethane medial post. I ran a couple weeks in a pair of flats, and yeah my legs basically fell apart. I trained in regular trainers for the next year. When I started marathon training I slowly weened myself off trainers with pegasus> elite> Streak II (Putting 500 miles on all so I was adapted to it). After my marathon I began training in such shoes as asics magic, nike mayfly (sweetest shoe for my stride ever), nike streak xc, nike vapor. I also incorporated a lot of barefoot running in my next base period, and ran in a workout as a lark a 40 second pr for 5k.

Flats worked for me, whether I intended to or not I did it fairly scientifically. I no longer get wrecked calves when I put spikes on. I do commonly have soleus pain, but I also don't stretch either. from trainers to flats pr progression

10K - 2 min

5k - 1:10

3k - 30 seconds

half mar - 9 min

10 mile - 4 min

flats can work, they take time, and it puts stress on muscles that haven't really done work. I have seen the benefit and whether you say it works or not, having tried it, I would know.

trackhead wrote:

long run is 18-20mi running 7:10-7min/mi for most of it until the last two miles when I go ~6:50 and sub6 for the last

workouts like 8mi @ 6:06 pace two weeks ago, tonight 10x1200m @ 4:30 w/ 60s rest. Feeling good when running it.

trackhead, how come you are so freakin slow? Do some fast paced running and lose that spare tyre you must be carrying.