How to pull back leg faster

heelstriking is a viable option for 50% wrote:

waltertompatton wrote:

Do you realize that there are thousands of boys in America (over 5000) that ran the 800 in less than 2 minutes last year? I am not talking about running it in 2:00.1, there were many of those as well.

You are surprised I never heard of Charlie Francis? He isn't even from our country.

Yes. So?

No, not if you are American. Have you heard of Renato Canova or Peter Coe? Lydiard?

It must be frustrating for you to talk to me. Perhaps you know something about a different area.

Maybe you know something about the law, politics, electricity, automobiles, or something. Give me something.

waltertompatton wrote:

You haven't explained why "heel striking is a viable option for 50%."

I just gave you an amazing statistic. You've named some famous coaches. So what.

What do you know?

Because at least 50% do it so it clearly works as well as any other technique.

waltertompatton wrote:

It must be frustrating for you to talk to me. Perhaps you know something about a different area.

Maybe you know something about the law, politics, electricity, automobiles, or something. Give me something.

The best racehorses are thoroughbreds.

SMH123 wrote:

Technique question wrote:

Does anybody know technique wise how to pull the back leg faster?

Try harder

Agree with this both in theory and in practice.

You have to admit that running on a treadmill is much different than running on the roads. There is also a lot less pounding. I was surprised to see Galen Rupp and his team running on treadmills but I bet the main reason they do it is to get some additional training without the pounding. They might also do it because you are more likely to run with good running form on a treadmill.

As distance runners we need to quit "just grinding it out." We also need to work on skills. Did you know that some D1 programs run by minutes rather than keeping track of miles? Why do you think they do that? They are constantly working on form. That is a big part of why they keep improving even after breaking 15:00 minutes in the 5K.

I agree running on a treadmill is a good bit different in many ways. Less pounding is one. Treadmill running is slightly easier. Rupp has access to zeroG treadmills that would reduce almost all pounding. He also has access to an aqua treadmill to reduce pounding. If he was on a regular garden variety treadmill I'd bet he'd either have mirrors to check aspects of his form or he videotapes his runs to review. I'm not sure the form would be easier because the belt is creating the velocity versus the runner creating it.

I agree with the stop "Grinding it out" mentality I've had the arguments with the "more miles is the answer to all" crowd. Someone with very poor mechanics should work on mechanics before bumping up miles to high. Without the increased efficiency more miles just adds more undo stress and could lead to a faster breakdown.

Yes I know of D1 programs all the way to junior high programs that train based on time. Coaches have done this for a very long time. Right now I'm coaching a few kids of varying abilities and fitness levels. It seems more logical to have them do a 60 minute easy run to help promote a certain adaptation. 60 minutes is 60 minutes. If I said go do 8 miles that could be 50 minutes to 66 minutes. So it equals things out some based on ability. This can be applied to fartlek runs and threshold/tempo runs too. For a fitness test though miles are it.

As for form, I would say all runners at all levels should work on form. There is a lot of misconceptions out there about form though. Many people seem to want to put the cart in front of the horse when it comes to form. Form/mechanics can be changed with velocity the easiest. Stride rate*Stride length = Velocity. Everything else is best to be changed naturally by doing drills. Forcing the mechanics in most cases is not the way to do it. Drills, Drills, Drills

I wouldn't of seen that high school kid over striding because he heard someone say a longer stride will make him faster. And he sure as heck wouldn't try running on his toes over striding because that would make him faster too. Poor kid took two bits of information that could be correct in some scenarios and got them both wrong at once.

heelstriking is a viable option for 50% wrote:

waltertompatton wrote:

You haven't explained why "heel striking is a viable option for 50%."

I just gave you an amazing statistic. You've named some famous coaches. So what.

What do you know?

Because at least 50% do it so it clearly works as well as any other technique.

Can you prove that statistic? I don't thing anyone knows that, and you must be including many

mid-foot runners within your 50%.

As for the statistic I gave you...about there being thousands of high school boys who ran under 2 minutes in the 800 last spring...I just added the total together from the outdoor season. The total was only 3,212 in America. However many coaches, especially in track & field, do not get their times in to the database. Whole teams do not get their times in, they expect that the website or the paper will do it for them. That number 3,212 may also be low because it does not include any indoor times. We all know kids who peak during the indoor season.

The number of girls running under 2:21 would also be in the thousands just for the outdoor season. That is school-record breaking time for many of them!

So there are approximately 7,000 half-milers with Olympic potential in America every year! Why would I care about Charles Francis?

But if you had talked about what he taught you about running form I would have appreciated it.

It seems like you would rather agitate so you can learn something. However I am not a scientist.

+10

I agree 100% on what you said in this post. I went to 30 coaches clinics over a 10 year period in my last coaching assignment. Now I interview athletes from Olympic Gold Medalists to high school kids.

I do not know it all. I come on here to practice my writing, give help where I can, and hopefully learn something in the process.

It does get frustrating when I feel that someone does not have an open mind about something. Clearly that is not you. We had a misunderstanding. I also can be a stubborn mule as well.

As for the clinics I often heard coaches say, "I lean towards not changing running form." However I like to think that we know better now. Maybe I like to think I do anyway!

Yup. wrote:

SMH123 wrote:

Try harder

Agree with this both in theory and in practice.

The common retort to that is, "how is that working for you?"

Maybe one should be careful with words but to just say try harder might actually cause problems.

Distance runners as a group already try to hard...

Just when you think Jon Orange is as bad as it gets.

Go to just past 9 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy1YGuhgxaw

Oh look, another one wrote:

Go to just past 9 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy1YGuhgxaw

Here's a better marathoner:

Generally speaking, how many heel strikers have the rest of their mechanics dialed in such that they can run as efficiently as Shalane and still get away with that foot strike? They can get into 2:21 shape without getting hurt. How efficient are they at shorter distances at faster paces, like say, 4:30 and under? Or are we only talking about marathoners now? (Prefontaine is such a trash example. Check out Viren's mechanics.)

What I've said (and I think some of the others, too) is that there are definitely successful heel striking outliers. Especially on the roads. Zersenay Tadese is one for sure. For them, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I conceded that in the last dumpster fire thread this topic came up in.

But on the whole, a beginning runner, someone who isn't already a pro who has logged 10,000 miles would be best served learning the necessary mechanics to be an all-around efficient runner. In my opinion if they spend sufficient time dialing in their form they would more than likely be mid-/forefoot strikers naturally without really focusing on that aspect in particular.

___

And in the professional ranks mid-/forefoot strikers are demonstrably more well-rounded runners from 800m through marathon; with the marathon having the most heel striking outliers. I'm not gonna bother looking to see how many of these wobbly Kenyan you guys keep mentioning have been sub-27:00 and/or sub-13:00 but I'm willing to bet it's a short list. A few token road specialists aren't going to change this fact.

Now bring on the anonymous hate. Keep digging deep into the internet for more fast heel-strikers.

Along came Walter wrote:

Just when you think Jon Orange is as bad as it gets.

Well I'm not 17 with an "old weird Harold haircut!"

Digging deep? She just won New York.

You were and are wrong. Just let it go.

No hate. Just facts..

Are you faster than Shalane?

Oh look, another one wrote:

Go to just past 9 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy1YGuhgxaw

You want us to look past 9mn because there's a still image that's supposed to prove your point (what's your point? running with a poor form is ok?)

She clearly lands her feet midfoot even though the heel of the SHOES do touch the ground first. Consider also that the heel drop of these cushion shoes give you a false impression.

See want happens when she runs with flats :

...midfoot.

Heal "striking" with flats on track hurts, why would anyone do that to his body?

I guess we are not looking at the same videos. I saw a mid-foot strike in both of them.

You actually need more sophisticated equipment than the guy is using here in the first video or use a range of pictures. James Ronald Ryun was not a heel-to-toe runner.

Apparently you are blind. She's heel striking all the time.

If you think she has poor form that's your problem.

You also can't spell heel.

waltertompatton wrote:

I guess we are not looking at the same videos. I saw a mid-foot strike in both of them.

You actually need more sophisticated equipment than the guy is using here in the first video or use a range of pictures. .

0/10

Troll harder please

Heel thine eyes wrote:

Apparently you are blind. She's heel striking all the time.

If you think she has poor form that's your problem.

You also can't spell heel.

...says the blind who can't read a post or watch a video properly.

Watch again until you realize you're wrong. Oh but...trolls are never wrong so that won't happen...except that you know that you're wrong, or you wouldn't have specified to go past 9mn.

2/3 heels correctly spelled in the same post, it's a typing error. It's obviously the only word you've decided to watch in my post, because it's the only factual way you've found to be right.

You think it's a skill but it's a real handicap unless you stay on LR for the rest of your life.

??????? wrote:

Heel thine eyes wrote:

Apparently you are blind. She's heel striking all the time.

If you think she has poor form that's your problem.

You also can't spell heel.

...says the blind who can't read a post or watch a video properly.

Watch again until you realize you're wrong. Oh but...trolls are never wrong so that won't happen...except that you know that you're wrong, or you wouldn't have specified to go past 9mn.

2/3 heels correctly spelled in the same post, it's a typing error. It's obviously the only word you've decided to watch in my post, because it's the only factual way you've found to be right.

You think it's a skill but it's a real handicap unless you stay on LR for the rest of your life.

False! I said to go to that point because it irrefutably showed her foot strike and where her body was relative to it. The video even does all the work for you.

You are hurting because the facts are right there and you can't accept them. You'll live though.