Thank you very much, Flagpole. I agree with what you've written on this subject, too. Wish more coaches did, I think it would be better for the sport.
Thank you very much, Flagpole. I agree with what you've written on this subject, too. Wish more coaches did, I think it would be better for the sport.
BS wrote:
Flagpole wrote:This^ is the truth and the crux of the whole discussion. People want what they want, and so they tell themselves that it is ok. I will give one exception to the not running with the athletes rule...if there is a special needs kid who really must have adult supervision and the parents and the school either can't afford or won't pay for someone to run with them, if the coach is able and all parties agree, then I'm ok with that. Pretty much, other than that situation, coaches need to not run with their athletes.
Not the only exception - at the park we run in it is required that a coach either be with the athletes or close by...
Then stay "close by". Doesn't mean you need to run with them.
winning is fun wrote:
Flagpole wrote:I didn't say it necessarily keeps the kids from doing well...just that it sucks the fun out of it for them, and potentially does keep more from joining, so that could have an unknown effect.
Doing well and having fun are the same thing. Winning is THE thing that is fun about XC.
Coaches running with the team doesn't make the team any better.
thejeff wrote:
1. Like most things, you can make it creepy or not. I don't ask my kids about their dating life. Did someone do that to someone you know?
2. Football coaches absolutely...ABSOLUTELY... show the correct way to form tackle, take on blocks, etc. With their team. This can get very physical. Did you play college football?
3. This may be the only part I agree with you on, but it is an asinine argument. Yes, my kids are supervised; they should not knock over trashcans, walk when they think they are alone, or talk about which girls on the team they wanna bang. Calling that stuff "just part of growing up" is a cop out by adults who would rather look the other way when children make poor decisions. Maybe you just had the wrong kind of friends.
4. I get in my runs before practice at 4:45-5am (practice starts at 6:15), so no, I am not just "getting in a run".
Let me guess: you have never been a head coach at a facility where you worked full time. Am I right?
1) You can't make it not creepy. Running with your high school athletes is creepy by definition. Too much closeness.
2) Other than showing proper technique, football coaches do NOT engage in practice. A CC coach can show runners how to do a stretch. They should not run with the team.
3) I never said it is ok for a kid to knock over a trash can or walk. I specifically said, in fact, that proper behavior be written down in the handbook that a kid has to sign and that punishment should be harsh for those who break the rules. Vandalism and not doing the run are part of that. Also, kids talk about all kinds of stuff that is appropriate that they just want to talk about with their peers and not around adults. "Part of growing up" doesn't mean looking the other way with regard to bad behavior. Gotta be unsupervised AND then choose to do the right thing to grow up. You are sucking the fun out of their lives.
4) No, you are getting a run in. You alluded to it back on page 2.
5) Your question to me shows that you are rationalizing running with the team based on the number of hours in the day. Not good. It's not about you. You should not be running with your team.
Surprise! wrote:
Remember, this is about high school. This isn't about a pro coach running with his athletes, and this isn't about running with 10 year olds who need someone to teach them safe traffic navigation.
High school kids don't want you there. It's team bonding time, not hovering coach time.
This has nothing to do with hovering and cutting in on team bonding - that's why you don't stay with a group longer then it takes to get the information you need (which can range from how an injury is feeling to why they are not running with their assigned group)
Like I said - its not our choice but we make the best of it. Kids don't necessarily like it when you correct form on drills and strides either but its a necessary part of learning to be a runner. You have maybe 2 hours for practice - with 40 - 50 kids on the team most of that time is spent either with them on their own running or you talking to the team as a whole. The run may be the only time you can get a min or so of individual time with a runner. If you could not stand chatting with your coach for a min or two you must have had a miserable coach or been a miserable teenager.
aCoachToo wrote:
When I was in HS, in a large top tier program, we almost never had a coach run with us. When one of the assistants tried, one of the more popular history teachers in the school, we always toasted him, and laughed at him behind his back.
Now that I coach, I never run with my team. I get any workout I am doing done before or after practice. We have several All-State Runners, so I wouldn't be able to keep up with them anyway. We do have a coach who is a former D-1 runner, in his mid-40s now. He runs with the team on almost every run. He does a good job though of giving the team their space when they need/want it.
When it comes to track season and lifting, I will hop in when someone needs a spotter, and will get in a set or two here seperatley, but most of the time, I am just making sure the underclassmen don't kill themselves in the squat rack.
How you and your teammates talked about the coach who tried to run with you is how other high school athletes talk about their coaches who run with them...they HATE it. Don't fool yourself though about your current assistant coach who runs with the team. The team hates it. They want their space on every run, so he's not doing a good enough job giving them space.
There's a time and place, but regularly I would say no. On occasion I think it shows a level of bonding and commitment with the team, but done too often and it becomes intrusive. Definitely not during workouts unless there's a specific advantage.
I've often found that during pre-meet warmups or course previews for XC it can be beneficial.
BS wrote:
Surprise! wrote:Remember, this is about high school. This isn't about a pro coach running with his athletes, and this isn't about running with 10 year olds who need someone to teach them safe traffic navigation.
High school kids don't want you there. It's team bonding time, not hovering coach time.
This has nothing to do with hovering and cutting in on team bonding - that's why you don't stay with a group longer then it takes to get the information you need (which can range from how an injury is feeling to why they are not running with their assigned group)
Like I said - its not our choice but we make the best of it. Kids don't necessarily like it when you correct form on drills and strides either but its a necessary part of learning to be a runner. You have maybe 2 hours for practice - with 40 - 50 kids on the team most of that time is spent either with them on their own running or you talking to the team as a whole. The run may be the only time you can get a min or so of individual time with a runner. If you could not stand chatting with your coach for a min or two you must have had a miserable coach or been a miserable teenager.
You are rationalizing running with the team. You can find out about an injury before or after the run, and you can find out why a runner didn't run with the proper group once the run is over. Regardless of what you think, you are hovering and you are cutting in on team bonding.
The best way to sum up a coach running with a high school team is this from Clubber Lang (played by Mr. T) in Rocky III - "Don't need no has-been messing in my corner!"
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/fd05f00d-4243-49a3-be6e-eddf42397d4eBS wrote:
This has nothing to do with hovering and cutting in on team bonding - that's why you don't stay with a group longer then it takes to get the information you need (which can range from how an injury is feeling to why they are not running with their assigned group)
Like I said - its not our choice but we make the best of it. Kids don't necessarily like it when you correct form on drills and strides either but its a necessary part of learning to be a runner. You have maybe 2 hours for practice - with 40 - 50 kids on the team most of that time is spent either with them on their own running or you talking to the team as a whole. The run may be the only time you can get a min or so of individual time with a runner. If you could not stand chatting with your coach for a min or two you must have had a miserable coach or been a miserable teenager.
My coach didn't run with us. If he needed a minute or two with me individually, he would walk up to me and talk to me before or after I finished running. Not sure where you got "I couldn't stand talking to my coach."
Flagpole wrote:
thejeff wrote:1. Like most things, you can make it creepy or not. I don't ask my kids about their dating life. Did someone do that to someone you know?
2. Football coaches absolutely...ABSOLUTELY... show the correct way to form tackle, take on blocks, etc. With their team. This can get very physical. Did you play college football?
3. This may be the only part I agree with you on, but it is an asinine argument. Yes, my kids are supervised; they should not knock over trashcans, walk when they think they are alone, or talk about which girls on the team they wanna bang. Calling that stuff "just part of growing up" is a cop out by adults who would rather look the other way when children make poor decisions. Maybe you just had the wrong kind of friends.
4. I get in my runs before practice at 4:45-5am (practice starts at 6:15), so no, I am not just "getting in a run".
Let me guess: you have never been a head coach at a facility where you worked full time. Am I right?
1) You can't make it not creepy. Running with your high school athletes is creepy by definition. Too much closeness.
2) Other than showing proper technique, football coaches do NOT engage in practice. A CC coach can show runners how to do a stretch. They should not run with the team.
3) I never said it is ok for a kid to knock over a trash can or walk. I specifically said, in fact, that proper behavior be written down in the handbook that a kid has to sign and that punishment should be harsh for those who break the rules. Vandalism and not doing the run are part of that. Also, kids talk about all kinds of stuff that is appropriate that they just want to talk about with their peers and not around adults. "Part of growing up" doesn't mean looking the other way with regard to bad behavior. Gotta be unsupervised AND then choose to do the right thing to grow up. You are sucking the fun out of their lives.
4) No, you are getting a run in. You alluded to it back on page 2.
5) Your question to me shows that you are rationalizing running with the team based on the number of hours in the day. Not good. It's not about you. You should not be running with your team.
5. No, my question to you is about being responsible for a group of athletes, both for their safety and how they represent the school to the community. I take it your answer is "no".
I hate that your coach was a douche and that the fun was sucked out of your childhood. It shows in your writing. Hopefully you can see from the number of well-adjusted adults in the world that not everyone's childhood was ruined by a coach who participated with the team.
My basketball coach scrimmaged with us in the summer. My football coaches worked out with us in the weight room. Not 100% of the time, mind you, but I always appreciated that my coach was athletic enough to put into practice what he was telling us to do. My experience is the opposite of yours. The coaches I found annoying were the ones who WOULDN'T get their hands dirty. I found them lazy and uninspiring.
Team dynamics wrote:
There's a time and place, but regularly I would say no. On occasion I think it shows a level of bonding and commitment with the team, but done too often and it becomes intrusive. Definitely not during workouts unless there's a specific advantage.
I've often found that during pre-meet warmups or course previews for XC it can be beneficial.
1) Pre-meet warmups. NO. That should be lead by captains and/or seniors.
2) Course preview? I could get behind that perhaps depending on the situation. If leaders on the team are familiar with the course, then they should do it. I don't consider that running with the team (it's not a training run).
thejeff wrote:
5. No, my question to you is about being responsible for a group of athletes, both for their safety and how they represent the school to the community. I take it your answer is "no".
I hate that your coach was a douche and that the fun was sucked out of your childhood. It shows in your writing. Hopefully you can see from the number of well-adjusted adults in the world that not everyone's childhood was ruined by a coach who participated with the team.
You're a weirdo. No one suggested that the coach running with the team would ruin their childhoods. You don't have to run with the team to ensure safety and how they represent the school. Based on something a longtime poster wrote, you think you psychoanalyzed his childhood to be miserable and that his coach was a douche. You're acting like a child. Seriously, are you that arrogant?
Surprise! wrote:
thejeff wrote:5. No, my question to you is about being responsible for a group of athletes, both for their safety and how they represent the school to the community. I take it your answer is "no".
I hate that your coach was a douche and that the fun was sucked out of your childhood. It shows in your writing. Hopefully you can see from the number of well-adjusted adults in the world that not everyone's childhood was ruined by a coach who participated with the team.
You're a weirdo. No one suggested that the coach running with the team would ruin their childhoods. You don't have to run with the team to ensure safety and how they represent the school. Based on something a longtime poster wrote, you think you psychoanalyzed his childhood to be miserable and that his coach was a douche. You're acting like a child. Seriously, are you that arrogant?
The dude is pretty bitter; SOMETHING sucked the fun out of his life. Your guess is as good as mine. Your time would be better spent helping Flag find happiness than worrying about me. All the best.
thejeff wrote:
Flagpole wrote:1) You can't make it not creepy. Running with your high school athletes is creepy by definition. Too much closeness.
2) Other than showing proper technique, football coaches do NOT engage in practice. A CC coach can show runners how to do a stretch. They should not run with the team.
3) I never said it is ok for a kid to knock over a trash can or walk. I specifically said, in fact, that proper behavior be written down in the handbook that a kid has to sign and that punishment should be harsh for those who break the rules. Vandalism and not doing the run are part of that. Also, kids talk about all kinds of stuff that is appropriate that they just want to talk about with their peers and not around adults. "Part of growing up" doesn't mean looking the other way with regard to bad behavior. Gotta be unsupervised AND then choose to do the right thing to grow up. You are sucking the fun out of their lives.
4) No, you are getting a run in. You alluded to it back on page 2.
5) Your question to me shows that you are rationalizing running with the team based on the number of hours in the day. Not good. It's not about you. You should not be running with your team.
5. No, my question to you is about being responsible for a group of athletes, both for their safety and how they represent the school to the community. I take it your answer is "no".
I hate that your coach was a douche and that the fun was sucked out of your childhood. It shows in your writing. Hopefully you can see from the number of well-adjusted adults in the world that not everyone's childhood was ruined by a coach who participated with the team.
My basketball coach scrimmaged with us in the summer. My football coaches worked out with us in the weight room. Not 100% of the time, mind you, but I always appreciated that my coach was athletic enough to put into practice what he was telling us to do. My experience is the opposite of yours. The coaches I found annoying were the ones who WOULDN'T get their hands dirty. I found them lazy and uninspiring.
I was a head coach and director of a program while also holding a full-time job, and yes I was responsible to the community. Your way is wrong.
My HS coach was actually NOT a douche. Actually none of them were. All good people, and they never ran with us.
I have no experience with basketball coaching or football coaching, so I have no opinion on what is acceptable there (mentality of those players is different too). Cross Country coaches though should NOT be doing training runs with the team.
dingle wrote:
I loved it when my coach ran with me. So did other kids on my team. Why do you think you know otherwise?
I said the same thing back on the first page. Apparently Flagpole lis just going to ignore us and continue to claim that people with our opinion do not exist.
There is no right answer to this question. It's what you make of it and how you see results. I've run nearly every workout/run with my teams (boys a few years and girls the most years) for nearly 12+ years now and we've had tremendous successes (state champion ind, state champ/podium teams, NXN qualifiers, etc.). I feel I've done some of my best coaching while in the middle of a run/workouts. I believe it has a lot to do with being in the moment with them. Sure you can't do that in a race, but you can teach them how to handle situations and scenarios (physically/mentally) in while in practice. When you are with a person just as they start to stress/struggle/panic in a run or workout you can give them cues/pointers to teach them healthy ways to handle that stress. If you are sitting in a chair awaiting their return, how is that coaching.
I've done runs directly with the team, ahead of the team, and behind the team. I've run intervals the same way. I never cater a workout to my training. In fact, it's not my own personal training plan at all...as I run maybe 2-3 races a year. I'll try making their training plans work for me by making slight adjustments when possible. We teach the team how to take ownership in parts of their training. They are required to have a watch and help track their workouts. In the end, it's up to them to do the work given. We certainly motivate, encourage, monitor, and appropriately handle those not meeting the WO goals. I believe my working with them has created a closer bond over the years as there is a sense of mutual respect. I'm out there hurting just as much as they are most days.
Again there is no one way to coach your team. If your way leads to happy and successful athletes than keep doing what you are doing!
How has this gotten to 100+ posts?
Don't run with the kids. Post one coach at the finish for athletes to coach in. Run the loop in the opposite direction so you check in with everyone at least one. This way you can tell stragglers, injured to turn around if needed.
They see you running. You are supervising according to tort liability.
Workouts you hold the watch.
thejeff wrote:
The dude is pretty bitter; SOMETHING sucked the fun out of his life. Your guess is as good as mine. Your time would be better spent helping Flag find happiness than worrying about me. All the best.
No worries about me, brother. I am very happy. I also wish happiness for all high school kids who have to endure another horrible run with their coach.
I don't see how either approach is right or wrong. Kids criticize when some fat guy on a ten speed is telling them what to do or if their coach is fit and runs with them. There definitely some people on here that had some bad experiences but quit putting it on everyone.
Hdhdjdjd wrote:
No. Separation of roles. You coach they run. Run on your own time.
Because you can't keep up with the girls you coach?