Shannon Rowbury fires shots at Caster Semenya

incrmiles wrote:

take the average of the men"s and women's winning time and if she beats that then give her a gold medal

otherwise it is a freak show

Hello, I am an MD and figured I would weigh in to try and add a scientific perspective to the discussion.

From my understanding, Semenya is a hermaphrodite. She has an external vagina, but internally she has undescended testicles, no ovaries, and no uterus. If anyone knows anything different than this, please let me know.

This is possible due to the way our genitalia develop embryologically. Various types of genital malformations are not that rare. In her case (I believe she considers herself to be a she and so I will respectfully refer to her as that), a signalling process during gestation never occurred such that she never developed external male genitalia. To my understanding, everything else about her body formed as a man. She has XY chromosomes. Men are different than women not just in the amount of muscle, but also in the amount of circulating red blood cells, bone density, larger heart, bigger lungs and higher levels of other hormones besides testosterone.

Caster has a CLEAR physiologic advantage. She has more muscle, more testosterone, more of all the components that make men faster than women at all distances. Caster and I are actually quite similar. We have the same 800 PR's, about the same amount of muscle and both are XY chromosomes etc. The only difference between us is that she identifies as a female, and one of the many stages in embryological development between us went differently.

Fairness is hard to quantify, we all have varying amounts of genetic talent, both in physical and mental forms. That being said, I think allowing people with XY chromosomes to compete against XX chromosomes is not very entertaining. As distasteful as this sounds, the only thing between me and a spot on the US olympic track team is a knife to lop off my penis and a surgery to put my testicles back in my pelvis so that they still produce testosterone, but no one can see them.

I think Caster is wrong to compete with women, and the fact that the IAAF allows her to compete is a sign of serious incompetence and failure to stand up against the PC brigade.

why cant someone show her levels verses everyone elses?

so people are saying woman should have 10 nmol/L and Casters is at 30nmol/L, and the average mans is 100nmol/L, so what is the higher limit for PRO men?

so how ridiculous you liberals are making this? caster isnt out there with 70nmol/L, but 30nmol/L, again lets see the levels of the athletes, if the "AVERAGE WOMAN" is 10nmol/L and caster is 3x that, what is the level of ELITE WOMEN ATHLETES?

so you went all medical did you? im calling bs, just like everyone on here has a 14:25 5k PR and makes $250,000 a year

from your understanding? it isnt that hard to google and read articles on this. yes she was born with a vagina, and has internal undeveloped testes, i have never read anything so far about her being an XY, that was your input without any facts on the matter.

number 1). you two are not similar, you have a penis and DEVELOPED testes that PRODUCE 10X the amount of testosterone than the average woman, you also produce semen and can reproduce

caster has a vagina, and undeveloped internal testes and produces only 3x the amount of testosterone of the average woman, and because of all this she is incapable of having children or producing semen thus not able to reproduce

number 2). you like the rest of these moron liberal idiots keep thinking that you cutting off your penis and "IDENTIFYING" as a woman is the same thing as caster. no you cant cut off your penis and make a vagina and shove your testicles back inside your abdomen, and cause them to be undeveloped and only produce 3x the testosterone and go win the Gold medal. you are a fool. and if you could read you will see the IAAF and other governing bodies are trying to put rules in places for idiots like you who think they can just "IDENTIFY" as a woman and destroy the competition, if you search you will see they want to make surgery mandatory and hormone therapy, but the PC crowd is fighting it

Thanks for that medical explanation, it's similar to what I've read elsewhere. But wherever the line is drawn as to who should be able to compete with women, I repeat the stakes have become too high. Otherwise nobody would consider lopping off their penis just for a chance to compete in the Olympics. And when the occasional hermaphrodite with an external vagina would also happens to be a great athlete comes along and wins a lot of races for a few years, it would matter a lot less.

Fixation on testosterone levels is very reductionistic and misleading. The fastest runners do not have the highest testosterone levels, and several studies say that heavy training actually reduces testosterone levels. Her phenotype is clearly different. It is the type of phenotype you see in someone with access to the ALL the genes on the Y chromosome. Yes, testosterone plays a role in that, but many other factors come into play.

oh then mr smarty pants MD, what exactly are you a doctor of?

if test has shown in your studies, again where are these facts? why do they TEST for it? if it isnt a big deal then why is the only real details of her results of the sex test is that she has internal undeveloped testes and 3x the amount of testosterone than average females? and was told she had to do hormone therapy to bring her testosterone levels down?

you prance around saying your an MD and blab on about studies and how you read this and that....

lets see the links then doc

SEGREGATION SEGREGATION SEGREGATION

Its sad, 40% of all homeless youth are transgender meaning they are being abandoned by their parents, whats sad is that Trans women have the highest unemployment, highest poverty, highest homelessness, highest suicide rate, and 6-times the national average for murder in the United States of America. Why?

Because they had the courage to say I think something is wrong and tried to fix it, all be it some happen to be runners. This is a discussion about segregation and abuse and abandonment. By society, by families, by groups like this who would do as all the abusers continue to punish women who happen to have born in the wrong anatomical body and the courage to fix it.

How about we applaud Caster for setting an example for all the abused and forgotten women who most all of you are complicit and complacent in allowing and condoning continued abuse. Over organs.

In the 19-teens woman weren't equal because of organs, 1960's blacks weren't equal because of an organ, 1990's gay and lesbian werent equal because of organs, now, trans don't deserve to live in society or be safe or feel welcomed because of an organ? This is a fight against ABUSERS who simply want a structure that enables continued abuse, now seeking segregation, we have been down that road.

How about EFFORT determines reward period. If I had an ear on my forehead or a lung born on the outside of my body you would say God has given us the knowledge and technology, we are picking and choosing and dividing and abusing over organs, atomic material and not the heart and effort of a human being.

I run harder everyday because of ignorant and abusive people like most of you who would rather hurt and hate than understand, love or accept, who say I don't have a place in your home, your family, your community, in this world. I am transgender, I am a runner, and I am appalled at this discussion.

These are women, we are women. Stop abusing us for trying to be more than national averages your a use has placed upon us.

LetsRun.com wrote:

Asked about the possibility of facing Caster Semenya in the Rio 1500 Rowbury was strongly opposed and did not hold back or mince words. She said:

“I think it challenges and threatens the integrity of women’s sports having intersex athletes competing against women. I think Caster [Semenya] is a wonderful person, I have nothing against her. But I think we already have an established precedent of men’s sports and women’s sports and I think we need to honor that. Women have fought far too long to even have the right to compete and now it’s being challenged by intersex and trans athletes and I don’t think that’s right.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMQJeL302Qs

That's ShaRow for ya! The pride of the Frisco Bay!

100thouonmydenims wrote:

Rowbury for under sec of stat wrote:

I just became a HUGE Rowbury fan!

+1

My thoughts exactly. Finally someone who is honest/bold and not afraid of the media or the scam known as political correctness.

Good for Rowbury speaking up against stupid men in women's events.

sorry there i will not take your side, caster is not a transgender like you, she was born with a GENETIC DISORDER not a PSYCHOLOGICAL one.

you are a transgender, which means you were born a man or a woman and "CHOOSE" to identify as the other gender. dont lump her into that category

she was BORN with a vagina and i would wager a lot that she didnt know she had UNDEVELOPED INTERNAL TESTES until she got that MRI in 2009, she didnt choose to have a body like that, therapy will not change that ughh

you want to dress up and "pretend" to be something else thats ok, but to try to claim caster as one of your own? no dont do that. if you were born a man and you go run against women and beat them does that make you feel "empowered"? if you are soooooo passionate about your transness then you had better walk the walk and go get the surgery and hormone therapy

SOME OF US ARE ON HORMONES AND DO HAVE SURGERY SCHEDULED ABUSER!

good glad you didnt go all bruce jenner and not follow through with the snipping.

now here is my question to you, are you mentally stable? are you happy with this unnatural altering of your physical body and chemistry in your blood? just curious

i agree with shannon,although i wonder what caster would be truly capable of running,if she chose to really push it? she may well be a lot faster than she seems,at every event from 100 metres to the mile.i also wonder if she has a similar intersex condition to francine niyonsaba,margaret wambui,dutee chand,dorcas ajok,and kabange mupopo?a lot has been speculated about semenya's exact condition,but what of the others?theyre all just labelled as "intersex".some people wondered about fantu magiso of ethiopia,and pamela jelimo of kenya.whatever happened to them?

There are a number of false ideas in your post. The sports have the threshold for a positive at 6:1 on a urinalysis test. The vast, vast, vast majority of humans are about 1:1. That means plenty of room to take exogenous T and never testing positive. Do your exogenous T just after the testing window closes at night and wake up in the morning never testing positive. It is very easy to use and never test positive. If it weren't for the carcinogenic risks of exogenous T and how it messes with your own body's T production, it would be a miracle drug.

This is not true. There's a bunch of false assumptions in your claim.

If it were the case his body did not produce normal levels of T as a biomedical issue he was essentially born with, a TUE would be no problem. He'd have medical history to get a TUE.

He'd also be the most implausible elite international athlete ever because his recovery would have been relatively horrible.

The most likely cause young adult onset low T is extended periods of exogenous T use. The body stops producing T and never returns.

oh classic hahaha didnt read it all the way, you have surgery scheduled.....nice nice well it will be nice to hear from you after they cut off your penis and balls and see what your mental state is then....not really something you can go back on after you make that decision....all though didnt they do the first penis transplant sometime ago? so maybe its not the end of the world if you dont like it lol

LetsRun.com wrote:

Asked about the possibility of facing Caster Semenya in the Rio 1500 Rowbury was strongly opposed and did not hold back or mince words. She said:

“I think it challenges and threatens the integrity of women’s sports having intersex athletes competing against women. I think Caster [Semenya] is a wonderful person, I have nothing against her. But I think we already have an established precedent of men’s sports and women’s sports and I think we need to honor that. Women have fought far too long to even have the right to compete and now it’s being challenged by intersex and trans athletes and I don’t think that’s right.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMQJeL302Qs

She's right. Biology is biology. If you have a Y chromosome you should compete against men no matter who you "identify" with.

The fact that you tried to make biology and sociology the same subject insantaneously makes everything you say null and void. Biology and sociology are two entirely different thing. Gender and sex, by their definitions, are not different. If Semenya identifies as transgender, how is she then allowed to identify as male or female gender? If "she" is trans, then she is trans. She therefore should not be allowed to compete against women or men, only trans. Biologically and physically, she is most certainly not a woman. Why is she allowed to compete in feats of physicality against women? Do you not admit that she has an unfair advantage by biologically being at least more of a man than any of the women she is competing against?

CWRP wrote:She's right. Biology is biology. If you have a Y chromosome you should compete against men no matter who you "identify" with.

Except sex is not binary. Semenya is probably a legitimately rare case of XX with some XY biology.

The problem being the way the IAAF is addressing this is horrible and has opened the door for T&F programs worldwide to end support of conventional XX athletes.

Semenya's events will be crazy.. They will have to use cameras from a helicopter to not make the casual viewers wonder why a Man is running a Women's event. Well, since this is the IAAF, maybe not.