Scientists & doctors please chime in - Is EPO a prescription given to malaria patients as a 2:05 marathoner claims?

this shows you have no clue about basic pathology

if you weren't desperately googling for info, you wouda realised hypothyroidism is more art than science, albeit wonderful endocrinologists can whip it nearer

interesting

what test did they use as you already said transfusions are

"undetectable"

???

drivel

what are doping detection for

autologous

v

intrinsic ???

no

utterly

0 pay-grade

Please keep your insulting tone and illegible comments out of interesting discussion such as this.

eh ?

micro-dosing epo

=

micro-dose crap

for a drug to work, you need buckets of it

not slithers

have you a clue ?

Well, twice that quote and link got cut. I won't try to paste again, but if you want the original link, it is available on pubmed with keywords hyperhydration and biopassport. I had also linked another study showing that micro dosing can increase HGB by 10% and never trip a control.

And while that is a far cry from the kind of study you describe, something that shows elites with micro dosing can improve performance but remain undetected. We have a starting point to draw infernces from.

ventolin^3 wrote:

eh ?

micro-dosing epo

=

micro-dose crap

for a drug to work, you need buckets of it

not slithers

have you a clue ?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. We are much better informed now.

Microdosing improves hgb by 10% study here

Metric Miler wrote:

I have not seen scientific evidence that microdosing EPO below the level that would trigger a positive urine test causes increased performance in professional athletes. I do not dispute it could work, but I am unsure of it's effectiveness. I don't think I am being ridiculous.

I am not well versed in this anecdotal evidence, especially with regards to beating the blood passport. The blood passport is designed to pick up on unusual patterns in an athletes blood.

The biological passport is pretty advanced.

'Dodgy values' aren't evidence in themselves, you can't just ban someone for being suspicious.

Don't appreciate the passive aggressiveness by the way ;).

Bro, if only there was this way to search for information that one does with a computer and something called a web browser. You could get some answers to your questions.

Until then bro, I guess we chill and have a brew.

If studies show that EPO could be used to treat malaria, could athletes get a TUE for its use? I don't suppose it would be impossible to find a doctor in Kenya to diagnose "malaria" and prescribe EPO as a treatment 6 weeks before a race.

Clerk wrote:

Well, twice that quote and link got cut. I won't try to paste again, but if you want the original link, it is available on pubmed with keywords hyperhydration and biopassport. I had also linked another study showing that micro dosing can increase HGB by 10% and never trip a control.

And while that is a far cry from the kind of study you describe, something that shows elites with micro dosing can improve performance but remain undetected. We have a starting point to draw infernces from.

Once again nice find. I still wonder though, is this increase actually tangibly performance enhancing? Why would the biological passport not detect the increase in haemoglobin if that is what it is supposed to do? Being a software I am sure the sensitivity could just be increased.

What's more, in highly trained individuals, would be able to get anywhere near the 10% increase in total blood haemoglobin shown? Also, the study itself as I'm sure you realise is not that great.

Metric Miler wrote:

Why would the biological passport not detect the increase in haemoglobin if that is what it is supposed to do?

Of course an increase of 10% is detected, say from 14.0 to 15.4 g/dl. However, the system is designed in such a way that one can dope a lot without getting blamed, officially in order to avoid false positives. Same story as with the 4 : 1 testosterone ratio.

Look at Paula for example. Her Hb went up from 12.0 to 15.6 in two days (2003 case), and she got away with it, citing altitude and hemocentration. Even her 16.2 g/dl in 2012 got excused in the end, although that at least triggered a formal review by three experts, after the first one found it suspicious.

RJM, I haven't been on this thread since the day I posted it. Please email me if you have any questions.

Youre posts seem to have no logic.

This is how I see it.

1) Malaria is common in Kenya. I'm not sure what some korean-kenyan testing positive has anything to do with the rosa group. Is it possible groups could have been using EPO for a long time in Kenya? of course it is but that has nothing to do with the case wer are talking about here.

2) The thing you seem to not understand is people will say they had malaria when they simply got sick so it's not necessarily malaria even if it's in the press that way.

3) I've learned from posting this thread as a few people have posted, or emailed me that it is indeed possible that someone was given EPO after they got malaria. So it's possible this guy Erupe didn't mean to cheat.

Instead you've taken this thread back into the 1980s.

Other greats had malaria wrote:

So, with regards to this athlete, I see a big issue: being able to come back from that kind of illness and perform as a 2:05 marathoner.

Filbert Bayi, the great world record setting miler, had recurring malaria.

Billy Konchellah won two world 800m titles. Pretty sure he missed one of the world championships in between his two titles because he had tuberculosis, and had to stop training on more than one occasion because of TB. He was also sick in another way, but no need to dredge that up again.

What's your point? I hope you are making fun of RJM. EPO didn't exist when Bayi competed.

Clerk wrote:Thanks for sharing your knowledge. We are much better informed now.

Microdosing improves hgb by 10% study here

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21336951/?i=2&from=/25773052/related

i see nothing about those being elite athletes

then they give no dosage units

if micro-dosing shoots up Hb by 10% then why are no records of 30 or 40% increases with full doses ???

ventolin^3 wrote:

i see nothing about those being elite athletes

Ohhh. Good point! They MUST BE genetically distinct from the rest of humanity.

Tell us all about how smoking doesn't cause cancer because there's never been a causal link established.

rojo wrote:

3) I've learned from posting this thread as a few people have posted, or emailed me that it is indeed possible that someone was given EPO after they got malaria. So it's possible this guy Erupe didn't mean to cheat.

Possible? Yes. Like lottery possible. Likely? No. This is like the "training at altitude" excuse.

You had several anonymous posts claiming to be medical doctors repeating the basic opinion that EPO is a very unusual therapy. Maybe it's easier than a blood transfusion in some locales?

We're back to the excuse being unlikely.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:Ohhh. Good point! They MUST BE genetically distinct from the rest of humanity

good chance they are

that's why there are elites & non-elites

elites may have genes which code for higher Hb or better lactate tolerance/use

this study is useless unless carried out on elites, which ain't happening as they have a career

what are "average" elites baseline Hb compared to the chumps in the study ???

when you are thinking it over, consider law of diminishing returns where you already have high natural &/or trained Hb as in elites ??!!!

Tell us all about how smoking doesn't cause cancer because there's never been a causal link established

clueless

you have no idea of science

what are numbers in world who smoke v number of elites on epo ???

Thanks, but I do not have any questions for you at the moment Rojo, since I do not think you could help me come up with any answers to the many questions I have about doping.

rojo wrote:

Other greats had malaria wrote:

Filbert Bayi, the great world record setting miler, had recurring malaria.

Billy Konchellah won two world 800m titles. Pretty sure he missed one of the world championships in between his two titles because he had tuberculosis, and had to stop training on more than one occasion because of TB. He was also sick in another way, but no need to dredge that up again.

What's your point? I hope you are making fun of RJM. EPO didn't exist when Bayi competed.

Thank you very much, Rojo. I consider a comment like that from you to be expected.

If you talk to Paula Perfect Transparency Radcliffe soon, please ask her if she is ever going to release any blood test results for hemoglobin and reticulocyte levels from around her 2:15 or 2:17 world record marathons.

That is a question I have for Paula that you can help me get answered.

Thanks so much for helping me get some answers to my questions.

bringing this back cause YOU WERE RIGHT mr TrackCoach!