Race wants prize money back

So the charity or non-profit or whatever it is, is The Surfing Madonna Oceans Project, and the race director of the race in question, Bob Nichols is also the president and director of operations for the Surfing Madonna Oceans Project. I have ran this race and had interactions with him both this year and in previous years. This race has been offering incredible prize money from the beginning (3 years). I believe it was mostly because they didn't realize how much they were offering. I'm guessing this guy and this organization thought it would be fun to run a race and didn't do much research. The race has been somewhat poorly organized (Inaccurate race distances) and has never felt to me like the people running it are part of the running community. Basically, I think you should view this guy as the head of an organization that decided to put on a race rather than a seasoned race director. Whether that makes things better or worse is up for debate.

Also, based on my interaction with him, I believe it was an honest, although completely incompetent mistake. That being said I don't think he is recognizing that it's not as simple as people paying back the money for those who had to travel, spent the money already or any of the issues that have been brought up so far. Threatening people is not the way to go, but I do not believe there has been any foul play in terms of trying to recoup money simply for greed.

Whoa. I am blown away that this didn't escalate into a "hobby jogger" debate.

Also, I think the charity is one that Mike Rossi set up at the last minute. Something along the lines of "The Mike Rossi Foundation for Dads Who Aren't Square" ...motto: Don't be a square - cut the corners.

Any who. I hope all works out for you. I too, have been in a similar situation, but they dropped it because the website didn't specify the correct division of prizes. When I took a look at the race website you sent us, it specifies under one prize listing that the money will be split between the age winners (male/female)...but that was at the very bottom. One would infer that the other values are to be given away as seen on the website.

Cheers.

Primo Numero Uno wrote:

I finished in the top 3 at this race a year ago. I received the full amount listed on the website and it was listed the exact same way. They did not split it between men and women. Absolutely do not give it back [...] you should get the money promised.

Primo Numero Uno, thanks for this input! This takes it from a 'triple whammy' to a 'quadruple whammy' (most reasonable interpretation of their website + giant checks they gave out + amount they sent him some time later and did not correct for a while + your new one, that this is the way they did it last year).

If they wanted to change the prize structure from previous years, they should have indicated this on their website. This new detail really seals the deal for me. I already thought it would be pretty reasonable for the OP to keep the money, but now I feel like the thin ice the RD was standing on has melted entirely.

Primo, do you have a copy of your check from last year or something that you could share with the OP if it comes to that?

Here's a fun way to deal with the worst case scenario.

Say, "Yes, I'll pay you back. Over time. I'm a poor runner, so $100/yr is all I can afford. Or, we can settle for $50 right now." Don't lie about what you can/cannot afford. Make it a real number.

I don't think the RD will take it all the way to courts and billable lawyer hours, but, that's the no-cost reply.

Bill the Pill wrote in part:

I looked at the website and as far as I can tell there's nothing about it being a not-for-profit business. I found one not so helpful statement: "All proceeds donated back to help SAVE OUR OCEAN!!!" That's pretty vague; it probably doesn't even refer to a specific charity. It's certainly not something anyone can easily track.

88888888888

Can someone point me to the part of the web site that says this.

the web link is to the ad for the that way again.2016 race and it looks like they still present the prize structure that same way as we have been discussing Do we have a link to the 2015 site as it was on the day the registration ended.

Not legally blinding wrote:

1) First and foremost, if you received more money than they meant to send, it's legally considered a gift.

Why do people keep saying things like this? This is completely false.

Primo, this would be a great help if worst comes to worst. Thank you for bringing this insight to the discussion. Please let me know if you would like me to contact you.

rojo wrote:

If it's not a nonprofit, which many are claiming, then I wouldn't pay it back. It drives me nuts when people take out .org email addresses to act like non profits when in reality they are for profit.

The Surfing Madonna Oceans Project appears to be a legitimate charity that is registered with the IRS as a 501(c)(3):

Being a charity doesn't mean that they shouldn't pay legitimate debts, like paying the prize that they advertised and awarded, especially when they act like jerks and when it looks like they are making up an excuse to take back money already awarded.

Legally, I think they have a lousy case, as I posted earlier in this thread. Morally, I think they also have a lousy case because they are not standing behind what they committed to do, even if they are a charity. If OP feels like giving them a donation because he supports their cause, he should do so, but he shouldn't give in to threats.

No reason to pay this money back. Further, no reason to be worried about being sued (or at least no reason to worry about incurring expenses that will not be reimbursed if you do get sued). On the other hand, just threatening to sue you doesn't give you any basis to sue them.

It's a $900 (BS) case. In California, the RD would have to sue you in small claims court (anything less than $5,000 - may be even higher now) where no one gets to bring in attorneys (sure either of you could hire one, but why would you?).

There are several legal and common sense basis why you wouldn't have to pay this money back, first and foremost the proposition that the language on the website will be construed against the drafter (that's them, not you or the other runners). On that alone, they lose. Period. Plus pretty much everything others have pointed out.

The only was $1 goes out of your pocket is if they sue you in Superior Court (claims over $5,000). Then you hire an attorney. That attorney asks the Court to (and the Court will) send the case back down to small claims court and award you the costs of having to defend the case in Superior Court. This is a situation where the Court almost certainly will want to make you whole for the other party willfully suing you in what they know to be the wrong court.

You are done with the attorney, you go back to small claims court and kick their ass!

If you do get a letter from their lawyer, I would check out this website and then draft an appropriate response:

http://deadspin.com/5716038/the-greatest-letter-ever-printed-on-nfl-team-letterhead

I also checked, and they are a legit non-profit, but I agree with "stand up to bullies." You could give a donation if you want to help support their cause. But if you don't want to, don't. They made the mistake so they should have approached you with humility, not threats.

Furthermore, when you look at the number of runners and the entry fees charged, this race should have made a mint! $44 to enter the 5k, $54 for the 10k, $64 for the 10-miler (well, it says 10-miler in the results but it says 15k in the registration). 251 finishers in the 10-miler, 769 in the 10k, 1823 in the 5k. That's almost $140,000 of registration income. Plus add in people who signed up and didn't run, I would expect they had in the range of $175,000 registration income.

If I received a check for $1800 for winning this race, and the website indicated that 1st place male received $1800 as it does, I wouldn't feel any obligation to return half the money. On the other hand, if they had sent me a check for $2800 due to a clerical error that added $1000, I would feel obligated to send the $1000 difference back.

Most likely the race director/organizer/fundraiser did not raise as much money as hoped, and went looking for ways to break even. Look at what Barb McKeever does: she doesn't give a $hit about the events she organizes, yet collects a nice fat paycheck.

Perhaps Bob will come after you with Mike Rossi's AOL attorney "Grimes for dimes".

My take - keep the money. You are not responsible for other people's incompetence, especially a non-runner who thinks he can fundraise from our sport and ride off into the sunset. And Price, please contact other prize winners of your decision so nobody will be intimidated by this jerk.

Furthermore, if this guy is this incompetent he probably won't send the info to the IRS, so you can probably also skip the taxes. $ winning friends of mine have done that. If he doesn't mail you a 1099 or whatever, it's tax free!

says Top Funders: Surfing Madonna Beach Run - $200,000

Surfing Madonna Brick and Paver Project - $20,000

Surfing Madonna wine - $28,000

Top Funding Needs: Surfing Madonna Beach Run - $75,000

Management - $69,000

Programs - $40,000

Bill the pill wrote:

I think you could pay them $1 and be done with it as far as a judge is concerned.

From their website:

"10 Mile total prize money: Overall Male & Female

1ST PLACE – $1800

2ND PLACE – $1000

3RD PLACE – $700"

It doesn't specify the particular break down of how much the male will get vs female winner will get, and it's not required they pay the same to men/women.

It could be male winner: $1799, female $1

GENIUS POST. A great post. They would argue that it was assumed that it was even, but why? In the NBA and WNBA, the salaries aren't the same.

So this guy could send them for a check for $1 and tell them to ask for the $1799 back from the female winner.

I agree that this is the best response so far. I wouldn't pay anything back, and if they take you to court, AND the judge somehow rules in their favor, you can offer to pay $1 in compensation due to the ambiguity of how it should be split. But I would argue that point only after a judge ruled against you, which I think is extremely unlikely.

rojo wrote:

Bill the pill wrote:

I think you could pay them $1 and be done with it as far as a judge is concerned.

From their website:

"10 Mile total prize money: Overall Male & Female

1ST PLACE – $1800

2ND PLACE – $1000

3RD PLACE – $700"

It doesn't specify the particular break down of how much the male will get vs female winner will get, and it's not required they pay the same to men/women.

It could be male winner: $1799, female $1

GENIUS POST. A great post. They would argue that it was assumed that it was even, but why? In the NBA and WNBA, the salaries aren't the same.

So this guy could send them for a check for $1 and tell them to ask for the $1799 back from the female winner.

It seems that many people are not reading all the way to the bottom of the prize money page.

I completely agree that you should keep the money and not pay them a penny back as it is their fault and had many chances to catch this mistake.

But it does state the Total Prize Money is Split between Male and Female winners 3rd bullet down.

RULES & REMINDERS

– For the costume contest only: You must be present to win

– If you are in one of the winning categories and cannot attend the awards ceremony following the race, you must contact the Surfing Madonna Oceans Project to claim your prize money.

– Total prize money in 5K/10K/10M is split between male and female winners.

– You must be wearing your bib number to run/walk in the race!

***We support fair competition and have a zero tolerance policy for convicted drug offenders. If you have been suspended or banned from competing current or prior, you will be immediately disqualified. Any use, or prior use that affects your performance day of the race, of drugs, alcohol, performance enhancing medications or methods, or having an unfair advantage will grant you immediate disqualification from this competition.

Does anyone know if this was there before or was added later?

They may have added this post-race. Pre-race it may not have been specified