This is how deep is doping in Kenya

Whoa fat burning nd many other systems are also involved besides hct. Epo as training aid enhances em,low hct balanced

Renato Canova wrote:

5) The main effect of altitude is not the increase of RBC. We have many "responders" able running faster after going back at sea level, with the same values of Hct and Hb. So, what did change ? Tha affinity between Hb and Oxygen, in other words the ability to "catch" oxygen from the air.

This means the limiting factor is not a lack of transportation of Oxygen, but the lack of available Oxygen itself, and under this point of view EPO doesn't have any effect.

There is plenty of oxygen at altitude.

But the atmospheric pressure is very low.

The oxygen has its own pressure, which depends on atmospheric pressure.

Imagine a bubble at the bottom of a glass of water. That bubble needs to have a higher pressure to move up in the water.

Same happens with the oxygen in the blood at high altitude. The oxygen has difficulties to penetrate blood vessels.

Hmmm... You ask him to show something he says doesn't exist.

Renato Canova wrote:

...

Put in your mind, also, that there are not scientific and proper researches about the effect of blood doping with top athletes born, living and training in altitude.

...

But, about Kenyans and Ethiopians, ... NEVER there was a research about their data.

...

Flow of denial wrote:

Renato, it looks like you, Jon O and J.R want to form the denial triumvirate.

Show us the studies that show the best athletes have more elasticity and capacity for volume of blood. naturally.

No.Performance is typically measured as time over distance.

Crit mass wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

HCT is not performance.

Is anemia "performance"?

Oh good one. Ha ha. I have to clean my keyboard and screen now.Since you are the only one to respond, so far the collective tally of what "EPO has been used with huge success for 25 years" means for running is Rita Jeptoo.

fred wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I don't see how you can interpret it more than one way, when you see "huge success" in it's original context.

Just the same, I followed up with clarification which also needs a response.

I suppose that you don't see a lot of things. That's OK. It's probably that the mood stabilizers have lost their effectiveness.

This is exactly the argument of dopers, that they still had to do the training and it really did not matter. However, they are able to train at a higher level and make all their physiological changes faster than the non doper because less rest is required. Less rest equals more workouts equals faster adaption. The drugs are not needed on race day because the accelerated training is already in the body. Therefore, blood data on race day is nearly irrelevant because anyone with half a brain has stopped using in enough time to avoid a positive test. The reason "B" level runners are getting caught is that they do not have the medical support and knowledge to beat the tests. That does not mean "A" level runners are not using. Very few cyclists ever actually failed tests, but an astounding number at the top were using. They were caught by either raids on the team or by correlating data. Now runners & trainers have knowledge of how that data correlation works, so it is easier to defeat. Watch this documentary "Alberto Salazar: Doping In Athletics Documentary". This guy beat the biological passport while doing EPO with no help. With regular blood monitoring by a trainer or doctor, there is no hope of catching dopers at the top of the sport. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLfbqqAEKwoAnd if a runner was dumb enough to test positive, a bribe to the IAAF President would sweep it under the rug.

Renato Canova wrote:

In the current mentality, NEVER people speak about the effects of training. It seems that every change in the individual performances is only due to doping, like training didn't have any importance. In the world of amateurs, they ask me "what do you give to your athletes", not "how they train", and this is something I can't accept, because is a very wrong message.

t

rekrunner wrote:

Oh good one. Ha ha. I have to clean my keyboard and screen now.

Since you are the only one to respond, so far the collective tally of what "EPO has been used with huge success for 25 years" means for running is Rita Jeptoo.

I am not sure whether you are referrring to Kenyans only (as the thread title is referring to this nation), but there are a lot of elite-level athletes who made big break throughs and who then tested positive for EPO. Just off the top of my head I can think of Lombard, the Spaniards who became the best European distance running nation in the 1990s (e.g. Garcia, Sanchez, Blanco, ...), the Moroccans in the 1990s/2000s (e.g. Boulami, Ramzi, Mourhit, Laalou ...), Eastern Europeans (e.g., Ceplak, Yegorava .....). These include Olympic champions/medalists, World champions /medalists and World-record breakers.

I guess that you could always say that EPO did not really work for any of the athletes on this long list and that the real factors for thier improvement were that they changed their training, or removed their mental barriers to running faster etc ....

rekrunner wrote:

No.

Performance is typically measured as time over distance.

Crit mass wrote:

Is anemia "performance"?

Will anemia slow you down?

Me? Probably not.

Crit mass wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

No.

Performance is typically measured as time over distance.

Will anemia slow you down?

I am not referring to anything, since it wasn't my claim. Thanks for the response -- it's a good effort. I'm actually more interested in the best case for non-Africans, but will refrain myself from commenting and hijacking the thread. Maybe next year I'll create some troll threads after some extensive data analysis, but only after WADA's "wow factor" report Part II.

preciously jaded wrote:

I am not sure whether you are referrring to Kenyans only (as the thread title is referring to this nation), but there are a lot of elite-level athletes who made big break throughs and who then tested positive for EPO. Just off the top of my head I can think of Lombard, the Spaniards who became the best European distance running nation in the 1990s (e.g. Garcia, Sanchez, Blanco, ...), the Moroccans in the 1990s/2000s (e.g. Boulami, Ramzi, Mourhit, Laalou ...), Eastern Europeans (e.g., Ceplak, Yegorava .....). These include Olympic champions/medalists, World champions /medalists and World-record breakers.

I guess that you could always say that EPO did not really work for any of the athletes on this long list and that the real factors for thier improvement were that they changed their training, or removed their mental barriers to running faster etc ....

What I am reading in Renato's original post is that most of the Kenyan busts were from rogue areas - and does not represent the vast majority of Kenyan athletics.

Let's consider three things and I am not saying you are lying but try to understand from our perspective:

1. Renato has a vested interest in Kenyan runners as he earns money from coaching Kenyan runners (and what else I don't know). It is hard to look past this when you provide us with facts. We need an independent source to look into this further - not you. You are biased.

2 There is taxation on athletes earnings by Kenya. There is incentive to allow for maximized earnings in this case by overlooking the doping side of things. This is especially true if some Kenyan Athletics officials are corrupt (as some say).

3. It is well known that some of the best Kenyan runners are practically impossible to track down for independent, random testing. True - they might be training in some camp far away from civilization. Keep in mind that the Russians were also famous for disappearing and reappearing for important meets. It doesn't help the Kenyan's runners case.

preciously jaded wrote:

I am not sure whether you are referrring to Kenyans only (as the thread title is referring to this nation), but there are a lot of elite-level athletes who made big break throughs and who then tested positive for EPO. Just off the top of my head I can think of Lombard, the Spaniards who became the best European distance running nation in the 1990s (e.g. Garcia, Sanchez, Blanco, ...), the Moroccans in the 1990s/2000s (e.g. Boulami, Ramzi, Mourhit, Laalou ...), Eastern Europeans (e.g., Ceplak, Yegorava .....). These include Olympic champions/medalists, World champions /medalists and World-record breakers.

I guess that you could always say that EPO did not really work for any of the athletes on this long list and that the real factors for thier improvement were that they changed their training, or removed their mental barriers to running faster etc ....

Or, stretched their circulatory systems.

Well, something is definitely being stretched

Will anemia slow you down?

rekrunner wrote:

Me? Probably not

This is a good stretcher

George Ilie wrote:

There is plenty of oxygen at altitude.

But the atmospheric pressure is very low.

So the oxygen molecules are bigger, so there is less available oxygen.

fred wrote:

here come the drug obsessives wrote:

It's all you ever write about. In case you hadn't noticed, Renato Canova is a very sucessful coach who doesn't share your drug obsession.

And he doesn't accept that the drugs work. He is a very big man for going against the established pseudoscience. And he is not alone in his belief. Get your head out of the sand and see things another way.

Pseudoscience Jon? I asked you write about how the nervous system works in terms of running, and the only thing you could say was the word "adrenaline."

And what do you think adrenaline does for a runner? In the right amounts it is a natural performance enhancer.

As for the nervous system in general, it controls all movement. And running is a skill is it not? And skills require the training and application of the nervous system.

Drug obsessives like you will deny such things to turn your argument back to your drug obsession.

trollism wrote:

At the time of her breaking the WR, Marita Koch was essentially a man.

This was because of the pharmaceuticals she was administered.

If you can't accept that, you're a moron.

don't bother arguing with JR, he doen't believe that PEDs exist. It's like trying to talk to an anti-vaccination loony.

Renato Canova wrote:

Gelindo Bordin won Marathon in OG (Seoul '88) with Hct lower than 40 and Hb lower than 13. Similar values for Schwazer, winning OG in Beijing (50 km walking) 4 years before starting doping, when his values were very high (but his best performances were BEFORE doping, and with low values). The first Kenyan training with me and winning WCh, Christopher Koskei (1999, steeple), two weeks before Seville had 39.7 of Hct.

However, the scientists of antidoping supposed Schwazer took some pharmac for lowering the Hct, "because it's not possible to win Olympics in some endurance event with Hct under 40".

Renato, you are right and Ferrari etc are wrong. What the fizzyologists haven't calculated is that faster marathon runners use LESS OXYGEN NOT MORE.

Because they are running faster due to better biomechanical efficiency, the total amount of energy and oxygen is less than a slower runner with the same physiology but less running skill development.

longjack wrote:

love canova.

but probably 20% of the cheaters were busted. or some such.

really, what kenyan that has a family to feed would not dope, particularly when the major competition of ethopia and morocco were on epo plus. combine that with bogus testing locally and under this environment. you are not loyal to your family if you don't cheat. plus are some africans really aware of the what is legal and illegal? or really have a clue about say bro jo moral stance.

next up. the entire of carribean track.

Africans are no less capable of knowing what is and isn't legal as any athlete.

In the long run, the doping circus will reduce interest and money for athletes. The drug infested world records have effectively blocked normal progression of marks, thereby killing one traditional source of interest.

The growing cloud of suspicion above the Russians, Kenyans, and US sprinters simply takes the joy out of the sport. The stink around the Russian, Kenyan, and US federations is outdone by the stench from the IAAF bribery scandal.

The doping Kenyan athletes are stealing from the clean Kenyan athletes, just as the doping US sprinters are stealing from the clean US sprinters. Giving up the doping fight will just give the sport over to the dopers which will lead to less and less interest, prestige, and money to what will be perceived as a corrupt and increasingly irrelevant sport.

smell the coffee, that is just hyperbole. Your attitude only entrenches the drug obsession and makes the problem worse.