Rek Runnee, did you read the bios of the USDA scietists, who are PhDs from USA from Canadian, and Australian. Do you actually think they based their option on thyroid therapy use as a PED on Internet gossip?
http://www.usada.org/science/ask-the-scientists/
If you have questions, ask them in the "Ask the Scientists" section. Several of us already have. I even asked, since they believe it to be a PED, if they can ban it at the national level.
Having a PhD is not a blank check to believe everything a PhD states. Hard to believe but PhDs are not know-it-alls.
I'm saying that PhDs who are experts in PEDs working for the USADA wouldn't form their opinion on hormone therapy based on Internet gossip. Three scientists, from USA, Australia, and Canada, trained and working in the field of PED have determined that hormone therapy is being used as a PED. Hopefully, they report their findings to the Canadian and Australian agencies too.
I think you got it backwards. I'm making the mistake of reading exactly what's in the public press, and not more. I'm wondering why others are saying more than I can find in the press.You also misunderstand what I'm challenging. I'm not challenging your position at all. If you say "USADA and UKAD thinks it is harmful", I already have quotes that corroborate that. I don't doubt what USADA/UKAD says publicly (or privately).But if you say "USADA's doctors have concluded that it is performance enhancing and harmful", I think it's fair to ask, why did you say that? Nothing I've read talks about USADA consulting doctors or scientists or scientific research. Did you read it somewhere else, or are these your own "original" thoughts? Can you tell me where so I can read it? Or are you reading more than was written? It shouldn't be that hard for you to provide an honest answer about why you typed what you typed.I'm not making the same kind of claims. I'm making no claims at all. When I say "I think" or "In my opinion", I don't need to provide external that this is what I think.But why do I assume USADA/UKAD presented no evidence: because WADA's response was emphatic that there is no way to believe that thyroid medication is performance enhancing or harmful enough to ban. This wasn't a public debate where each side presents their case without the other side knowing. WADA had complete access to USADA/UKAD's evidence and arguments. And there response was emphatic that banning thyroid medication was not appropriate.Let's suppose I'm wrong, and USADA also had medical and scientific research. Just the same, WADA's response was emphatic that banning thyroid medication was not appropriate.If there is some question you want me to explain, or corroborate, go ahead and ask.
clerk wrote:
I understand your point rekrunner. I do think you're reading too much into a press release. I'm not sure why you assume USADA and UKAD are lobbying with only testimony. I'm not sure why you say there is not evidence it is harmful. Those are two assumptions that aren't supported by any of the very little information we have.
But then you challenge us to back our position that USADA and UKAD thinks it is harmful.
Can you corroborate which US and UK doctors again?Does anyone know what supporting evidence USADA and UKAD produced as part of their lobbying? Did they just come with a package of faith and beliefs and statements of fear, and pleas that "this just ain't right!"?
I think USADA (lawyers) came forward with a list of athletes allegedly abusing non-banned prescriptions, and some corroborating testimony, as their evidence.
This is the disconnect I am first concerned about. You make the same kind of claims we do, and none of us have evidence. My point about your tone, again, is:
"By saying you think WADA is right, you have as much obligation to find their evidence/credibility as we do to find USADA's/UKAD's evidence/credibility.
Which I think is zero. Which is why I say it's unfair to address our position the way you have."
None of us have any hard evidence, but you're only demanding it from us and not yourself.
rekrunner wrote:
I think you got it backwards. I'm making the mistake of reading exactly what's in the public press, and not more.
You are wrong. the following is correct. "I'm making the mistake of reading exactly what's in the public press, interrupting it the way I want, and not more." This is correct because the media is entirely unbiased.
clerk,
You more or less list a bunch of warning labels for prescription drugs which I assume you feel supports the notion that thyroid medication can be harmful. Certainly the abuse of most any prescription drug will be bad for an individual's health.
Since there is no known performance enhancing benefit of thyroid medication for elite athlete's I can't see why it would need to be banned for being unsafe. There is no motivation for an elite athlete to use it outside of a doctor's prescribed dosage to correct a hormonal imbalance. It also does not "mask" or make undetectable other substances which might be abused and are already banned (and tested for) by WADA for their performance enhancing effects. Might the abuse of other banned substances cause a hormonal imbalance? That seems possible but thyroid medication won't mask the effects and it doesn't enhance performance beyond that of an athlete with a normally functioning thyroid.
There may need to be better testing for PEDS currently on the list of banned substances but thyroid medication is not something we need to get excited about . . . and WADA agrees. USADA and UKAD may have concerns but we don't seem to know exactly what those are right now and they haven't risen to the level of any athletic organization on any level banning the use of thyroid medication that I am aware of.
been around 'ya know wrote:
clerk,
You more or less list a bunch of warning labels for prescription drugs which I assume you feel supports the notion that thyroid medication can be harmful. Certainly the abuse of most any prescription drug will be bad for an individual's health.
Of course. Which is a reason most of those are banned. More than 200, in fact (192 as of 2010). Many powerful painkillers/opiates. Many inhaled medications. Many blood thinners/thickeners. Weightloss or other drugs that effect your metabolism. Cocaine is as performance enhancing as Thyroid Hormones. Banned. Inhaling Xenon Gas. Banned. And beside
been around 'ya know wrote:
Since there is no known performance enhancing benefit of thyroid medication for elite athlete's I can't see why it would need to be banned for being unsafe. There is no motivation for an elite athlete to use it outside of a doctor's prescribed dosage to correct a hormonal imbalance. It also does not "mask" or make undetectable other substances which might be abused and are already banned (and tested for) by WADA for their performance enhancing effects. Might the abuse of other banned substances cause a hormonal imbalance? That seems possible but thyroid medication won't mask the effects and it doesn't enhance performance beyond that of an athlete with a normally functioning thyroid.
Like I said earlier, I always have to repeat myself:
Clerk wrote:
.
In order for a substance or method to be added to the banned list, WADA requires that it meets at least two of the three criterea: that it is performance enhancing, that it is harmful to the athlete's health, or that it violates what they call the "spirit of the sport."
The arguments that Thyroid Hormones are against the spirit of the sport are well-develop on this and many other threads.
Remember when I said I don't like letsrun because nobody reads the whole thread and I have to repeat myself?
been around 'ya know wrote:
Might the abuse of other banned substances cause a hormonal imbalance? That seems possible but thyroid medication won't mask the effects and it doesn't enhance performance beyond that of an athlete with a normally functioning thyroid.
clerk wrote:
The most frustrating thing about this forum are people who post without reading the rest of the thread
Everytime Thyroidism comes up, I post the same thing:Thyroid medication by itself does not increase performance...
...They take thyroid medication in a doping program because other doping products effect their thyroid system, just like it effects other systems.
EPO, Testosterone, HGH, all effect thyroid. A doping athlete doesn't take thyroid medication to add to those boosters, but to balance out their negative side effects.
...
Of course Thyroid Hormone won't mask the effects. Why would you take something that un-enhances your performance enhancing drugs? It is necessary because a person on a dope regime will not have a regularly functioning thyroid, because of the dope! We know that much from testimony.
The athletes are using it as a PED. This is why both the USADA and UKADA lobbied to have the WADA ban it. The science hasnt caught up with the cheaters, as is always the case. It will be banned. This is just a hurdle on the way for it to being banned.
rekrunner wrote:
If you say "USADA and UKAD thinks it is harmful", I already have quotes that corroborate that. I don't doubt what USADA/UKAD says publicly (or privately).
But if you say "USADA's doctors have concluded that it is performance enhancing and harmful", I think it's fair to ask, why did you say that?
Wat? Are you saying "I believe A, I don't doubt it. You say A is true. You have to prove A." That makes no sense
Either way, here it is, packaged nice and neat for you:
Officials at Usada argued that the hormone is being used for performance-enhancing effects, while a spokeswoman for UKAD told The Wall Street Journal this summer that the agency believed that the use of thyroid hormone was particularly harmful to the health of athletes without a medical need for it.
rekrunner wrote:
Nothing I've read talks about USADA consulting doctors or scientists or scientific research. Did you read it somewhere else, or are these your own "original" thoughts? Can you tell me where so I can read it? Or are you reading more than was written? It shouldn't be that hard for you to provide an honest answer about why you typed what you typed.
Are you reading anything I write? USADA and UKAD have already shown that this is a thorough process. I'm not sure why you are choosing to read so literally that "USADA and UKAD lobbies WADA" no mean that they did absolutely nothing else than sit in the lobby of WADA's office, with no evidence, no science, and no backing.
Here: more, more more, just to make it crystal clear:
“UKAD formed the view, along with a number of other national anti-doping organisations, that thyroid medication, if used without a genuine medical need, is harmful to healthâ€, UKAD CEO Nicole Sapstead told the BBC. “It can be used in a manner which is contrary to the spirit of sport and, in some circumstances, can be considered performance enhancing. This is third year that UKAD have submitted a proposal for thyroid medication to be added to the prohibited list. UKAD will continue to work with global partners and consider our next steps in due course.â€
rekrunner wrote:
because WADA's response was emphatic that there is no way to believe that thyroid medication is performance enhancing or harmful enough to ban. ...
Let's suppose I'm wrong, and USADA also had medical and scientific research. Just the same, WADA's response was emphatic that banning thyroid medication was not appropriate.
Obviously, WADA said that. That's what the whole thread is about! So WADA said "No" louder than UKAD/USADA said "Please?". Well then case closed. No governing body has ever acted defensive when challenged, and never will. It's science. WADA's decisions make truths happen. And that's sarcasm, by the way, because you have trouble reading anything beyond literal meanings.
Remember when I say how often I have to repeat myself?
Clerk wrote:
This whole discussion is about the fact that WADA is wrong.
"Interrupting?" That's an odd thing to say.Do you have any specific examples of what you mean?
UR WRONG wrote:
rekrunner wrote:I think you got it backwards. I'm making the mistake of reading exactly what's in the public press, and not more.
You are wrong. the following is correct. "I'm making the mistake of reading exactly what's in the public press, interrupting it the way I want, and not more." This is correct because the media is entirely unbiased.
No -- Is it relevant?No -- I think the concerns USADA raised were based on direct interviews with Nike athletes/staff.I don't have any questions for USADA's scientists.
Clean Sport Please wrote:
Rek Runnee, did you read the bios of the USDA scietists, who are PhDs from USA from Canadian, and Australian. Do you actually think they based their option on thyroid therapy use as a PED on Internet gossip?
http://www.usada.org/science/ask-the-scientists/If you have questions, ask them in the "Ask the Scientists" section. Several of us already have. I even asked, since they believe it to be a PED, if they can ban it at the national level.
rekrunner wrote:
"Interrupting?" That's an odd thing to say.
UR the worst troll on this thread. No proof necessary.
If you don't ask USADA scientists why they lobbied WADA you'll never why. Your own option, based on Internet gossip, is worthless. If you think USADA use a similar method to derive opinions, you're ignorant to the work of USADA scientists.
Do you honestly not see the difference between quotes from "officials" and "spokespersons" versus conclusions from "doctors" and "scientists"?If this whole thread is about the "fact" that "WADA is wrong", I look forward to the arguments that will attempt to prove this fact.
clerk wrote:
rekrunner wrote:If you say "USADA and UKAD thinks it is harmful", I already have quotes that corroborate that. I don't doubt what USADA/UKAD says publicly (or privately).
But if you say "USADA's doctors have concluded that it is performance enhancing and harmful", I think it's fair to ask, why did you say that?
Wat? Are you saying "I believe A, I don't doubt it. You say A is true. You have to prove A." That makes no sense
Either way, here it is, packaged nice and neat for you:
Officials at Usada argued that the hormone is being used for performance-enhancing effects, while a spokeswoman for UKAD told The Wall Street Journal this summer that the agency believed that the use of thyroid hormone was particularly harmful to the health of athletes without a medical need for it.
rekrunner wrote:
Nothing I've read talks about USADA consulting doctors or scientists or scientific research. Did you read it somewhere else, or are these your own "original" thoughts? Can you tell me where so I can read it? Or are you reading more than was written? It shouldn't be that hard for you to provide an honest answer about why you typed what you typed.
Are you reading anything I write? USADA and UKAD have already shown that this is a thorough process. I'm not sure why you are choosing to read so literally that "USADA and UKAD lobbies WADA" no mean that they did absolutely nothing else than sit in the lobby of WADA's office, with no evidence, no science, and no backing.
Here: more, more more, just to make it crystal clear:
“UKAD formed the view, along with a number of other national anti-doping organisations, that thyroid medication, if used without a genuine medical need, is harmful to healthâ€, UKAD CEO Nicole Sapstead told the BBC. “It can be used in a manner which is contrary to the spirit of sport and, in some circumstances, can be considered performance enhancing. This is third year that UKAD have submitted a proposal for thyroid medication to be added to the prohibited list. UKAD will continue to work with global partners and consider our next steps in due course.â€
rekrunner wrote:
because WADA's response was emphatic that there is no way to believe that thyroid medication is performance enhancing or harmful enough to ban. ...
Let's suppose I'm wrong, and USADA also had medical and scientific research. Just the same, WADA's response was emphatic that banning thyroid medication was not appropriate.
Obviously, WADA said that. That's what the whole thread is about! So WADA said "No" louder than UKAD/USADA said "Please?". Well then case closed. No governing body has ever acted defensive when challenged, and never will. It's science. WADA's decisions make truths happen. And that's sarcasm, by the way, because you have trouble reading anything beyond literal meanings.
Remember when I say how often I have to repeat myself?
Clerk wrote:
This whole discussion is about the fact that WADA is wrong.
Does Steve Magness feel like a dumb@ss now?
rekrunner wrote:
Do you honestly not see the difference between quotes from "officials" and "spokespersons" versus conclusions from "doctors" and "scientists"?
If this whole thread is about the "fact" that "WADA is wrong", I look forward to the arguments that will attempt to prove this fact.
I'm now regarding you as a troll. This is ridiculous. I've spent the whole thread doing just that.
We have evidence it is harmful. We have evidence it is used against the spirit of the sport. We have evidence that USADA and UKAD pointed this matter out to WADA and were ignored. WADA is wrong.
I'm done with you.
Exactly. That fool thinks USADA and UKADA presented hersay and innuendo to WADA.
The revelation that USADA and UKADA is clear proof scientists studying PEDs believe hormone therapy is cheating.
Convincing WADA will take a little more time, but it's going to happen.
Cheaters, this is a wake up call!
You are right -- I'm not that ignorant. Let me correct a couple of your other assumptions:- I don't have any questions about why the USADA/UKAD lobbied WADA.- "Internet gossip" is not MY "option".
You can't be that ignorant? wrote:
If you don't ask USADA scientists why they lobbied WADA you'll never why. Your own option, based on Internet gossip, is worthless. If you think USADA use a similar method to derive opinions, you're ignorant to the work of USADA scientists.
So your position is reduced to correcting typos. Congratulations genius!
p.s. Google sarcasm.
Actually to be fair to Steve Magness, his claims were more about testosterone, and mysterious pills sent inside of books, and prescription drug abuse in general.In 2013 he wrote in his blog about thyroid medication, and how hard it is to get it right. He speaks from direct personal knowledge as someone with Hashimoto's disease. He's a scientist resource you could quote saying that thryoid medication is not performance enhancing.
Deer Park wrote:
Does Steve Magness feel like a dumb@ss now?