Easy transition into flats

Johnston,

It's an efficiency issue, and it's a strength issue. Like I said before, if El Guerrouj and Bekele do their easy stuff in Pegs of Spans (and their track work in spikes and hard LT runs in flats) they don't have much to gain in terms of efficency in large part to the huge amount of drills they do daily (~6mi). As with any performance enhancer, the biggest gains will be seen by those with the most to gain. their biggest fains would actually be in injury prevention -- something I'm eager to tlak with their coaches about.

Abebe Bikila.

Trackhead:

Bikila ran the marathon faster in shoes, but nevermind.

A couple months ago I read the following post, which is interesting. I copy it in full here. I note that there are no studies on the benefits of cushioned shoes for VERY high mileage, highly efficient runners. My guess is that there may be diminishing returns to uncushioned running at about the 80-90 mile mark, after which point technology can help the efficient runner go further, faster. I extrapolate only from my own experience. But note these studies are fairly primitive, and much more solid research needs to be done. Otherwise, its just an exchange of doctrines supported by personal experience.

RCB

Read this (http://www.sportsci.org/jour/0103/mw.htm):

"Wearers of expensive running shoes that were promoted as correcting pronation or providing more cushioning experienced a greater prevalence of these running-related injuries than wearers of less expensive shoes (Robbins and Gouw, 1991). In another study, expensive athletic shoes accounted for more than twice as many injuries as cheaper shoes, a fact that prompted Robbins and Waked (1997) to suggest that deceptive advertising of athletic footwear (e.g., "cushioning impact") may represent a public health hazard. Anthony (1987) reported that running shoes should be considered protective devices (from dangerous or painful objects) rather than corrective devices, as their capacity for shock absorption and control of over-pronation is limited. The modern running shoe and footwear generally reduce sensory feedback, apparently without diminishing injury-inducing impact?a process Robbins and Gouw (1991) described as the "perceptual illusion" of athletic footwear. A resulting false sense of security may contribute to the risk of injury (Robbins and Gouw, 1991). Yessis (2000, p.122) reasoned that once the natural foot structures are weakened by long-term footwear use, people have to rely on the external support of the footwear, but the support does not match that provided by a well functioning foot.

Measurements of the vertical component of ground-reaction force during running provide no support for the notion that running shoes reduce shock. Robbins and Gouw (1990) reported that running shoes did not reduce shock during running at 14 km/h on a treadmill. Bergmann et al. (1995) found that the forces acting on the hip joint were lower for barefoot jogging than for jogging in various kinds of shoe. Clarke et al. (1983) observed no substantial change in impact force when they increased the amount of heel cushioning by 50% in the shoes of well-trained runners. Robbins and Gouw (1990) argued that plantar sensation induces a plantar surface protective response whereby runners alter their behavior to reduce shock. The less-cushioned shoe permitted increases in plantar discomfort to be sensed and moderated, a phenomenon that they termed "shock setting". Footwear with greater cushioning apparently provokes a sharp reduction in shock-moderating behaviour, thus increasing impact force (Robbins and Hanna, 1987; Robbins et al., 1989; Robbins and Gouw, 1990). However, in these studies the subjects ran on treadmills or force platforms. Further studies are needed to establish how shoes affect impact force and shock-moderating behavior on natural surfaces such as road or grass."

johnston wrote:

I only suggest a bit of padding on your street shoes. Light trainers (DS-trainer, NB 900, etc..) or Nike Milers or Pegs -- not PUMA H-streets or some other lame fashion shoe.

--Johnston

And what is the purpose of "extra padding"? It won't DECREASE the force on your legs/feet. Also, the higher your center of gravity (hence, the thicker the midsole), the more unstable you are on your feet. Think of trainers as SUVs-- greater likelihood of "tipping" over. I'm reposting what I've already posted (and check out what the above poster posted):

From Lore of Running: "The softness of the midsole has no marked effect on landing forces during running (T.E. Clarke et al,1983b; Frederick,1986; Nigg et al., 1987). It seems that runners alter their gaits and muscle activation patterns (Komi et al., 1987) when running in harder shoes or when running barefoot. Thus, the degree of pronation is reduced when one runs barefoot (Frederick, 1986; L.S. Smith et al., 1986), a reduction due to changes in running patterns...."

The Puma H Street is modeled off the Puma Harambees, definitely not a lame shoe.

:) jag

Johnston,

I did not intend to imply that you were recommending stabily shoes or orthotics, my apoligies. The point I was trying to make was that there is no specific amount proven to be better or worse in regards to cushion. So going with an amount that will not change ones natural foot strike would seem most appropriate.

As far as training advice goes I think I will stick the advice that I have received from my coaches. And by the way I have looked at what my competitors wear. And they all race in flats and spikes. If you like to wear thick forefoot padding that is great. I still don't believe that having more than 1/2 inch forefoot cushioning is necessary. Good day!

bump

resurrecting this thread becasue this is to me the most intriguing topic in terms of training.

i would like to say that i am a case study on changing form and transitioning to a more minimal shoe. the transition in form, including shoe, takes a few years.

first, i began to shift from a heel stomping 155 steps per minute to shooting for the goal of 180 steps per minute. this began immediate improvement in foot plant and center of gravity positioning.

secondly, i am moving from orthodics and stability shoes down to orthodics and lightweight shoes, to no orthodics and lightweight shoes. i am being ever so gradual.

right now i am doing phsycial therapy each day to strengthen tendons in my lower leg, i am coming back from an injury, a strain in posterior tibular tendon (probably the result of my change in form).

the transition is not always smooth, but i now run with a form that is significantly more efficient that where i was at when i raced in college.

i thank people like trackhead and dr flats for their insight, along with nobby. i will keep posted with my progress. i feel that when improving form, especially when the changes are large, gradual is the most important thing, and also to be PATIENT in expecting results to come. it seems to me that one must make the transition adn look for improvements over a few years.

hesse

look at the "why asics america sucks" thread where this topic was covered in depth. hesse, we've been there, done that. good luck to you but, let's not talk about this stuff any more.