BREAKING: Kenya is forced to setup anti doping agency in Kenya

Jeff Wigand wrote:

Sciatica Road wrote:

Kisorio's testimony was particularly damaging.

I don't agree.

"I went with it, because everyone told me I wasn't the only one – and none of the others got caught for doping," said Kisorio. It doesn't surprise me that the people selling him this stuff would say that and it wouldn't surprise if they do in fact sell it to a number of athletes. But what would surprise me is if numerous, independent groups of consistently top runners are all in some doping scheme. I don't believe there is sufficient organization or enough resources to stay at a high level and keep turning out clean tests. If top western runners are running afoul of the ABP, Kenyans will fare no better.

You can agree or disagree with the articles cited, and their sources, as readers can make up their own minds. But you seem to be running around in circles with your latter statements. If I understand you correctly, you are implying that:

(a) the current test control is sufficient to catch cheats, since it has caught some westerners, and it has caught some east africans, and it will continue to do so.

(b) their is no widespread, centrally controlled sophisticated doping program in Kenya whereby a particular camp, coach or foreign management system can be implicated.

Regarding point (a), that appears to be the current position of Athletics Kenya President Isaiah Kiplagat; however, the government report concluded he "does not seem to understand the gravity of doping in athletics" .

Regarding point (b), if PED's are indeed are so easily obtained without prescription--like the situation south-of-the-border in Tijuana (though one would not have to worry about the serious issue of smuggling them back across the border in Kenya)--then their is no need for the foreign coaches to get their hands dirty supplying the drugs; it gets effectively done serendipitously.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

The point I was making is that the mere ease of access in obtaining a PED in a particular country is not a red flag.

True; for example, obtaining a PED undetected without prescription is a lot easier in Mexico than in the states. But if Mexico was continually churning out WR setting distance runners, then the two together would be a red flag.

You pointed out that drugs were easy to access in Kenya. That means nothing to make Kenya any worse than the US, where drugs are also easy to access.

WRONG; if non-prescription PEDs are as easy or even easier to get than they are in Mexico, without the serious doping-offense repercussions (e.g., trafficking, possession, etc.) that one faces in the States, then that would mean THEY ARE A LOT easier to access than in the States.

No. I am saying that the gulf between testing in North America and Europe and East Africa is not so wide as I believe you are making in out to be. It's down to blood tests, which are rare in general, and, thankfully, are set to be in place in the near future.

"A particular camp" running some scheme would not be the most shocking thing. Several independent groups of top athletes would be more so.

Have you been able to read the report?

Sciatica Road wrote:

WRONG; if non-prescription PEDs are as easy or even easier to get than they are in Mexico, without the serious doping-offense repercussions (e.g., trafficking, possession, etc.) that one faces in the States, then that would mean THEY ARE A LOT easier to access than in the States.

Of any of the Americans or American-based athletes known to have used PEDs, how many were caught at the border? I believe Trafeh is the only one.

The premise of the position repeatedly brought to the board has been that it is "far-and-away easier to escape doping control" in Kenya, versus in the States. The position is summarized below.

Doping control involves, fundamentally, testing and drug supply

We agree that testing is quite ineffective in catching cheaters via drug tests. [In the States, there may have been more busts lately by catching them smuggling (e.g., Trafeh), or turned-in by fellow athletes (e.g., Hesch).

Regarding drug supply:

1. PED's are available in Kenya and they are much easier to get (e.g., actovegin in banned in the US and not overseas; many PED's require prescription in the US.)

2. In Kenya, there are much less stringent criminal offense repercussions with the use of PED's that would require a prescription in the US. To use in the States legally, then subjects the athlete to TUE's exposure.

Regarding testing:

3. It is much easier to keep track of athletes for OOC testing in States than in Kenya.

edit, should read:

1. PED's are available in Kenya and they are much easier to get (e.g., actovegin in banned in the US and not overseas; many PED's require prescription in the US.) without detection.

True, one can buy EPO or HGH over the internet in the States, but suffer the consequences of detection in doing so. This is prime motivation behind someone going south-of-the border rather than using mail-order, in the states. It is A LOT more difficult than in a third world country, going down the street, passing money behind the counter.

Sciatica Road wrote:

edit, should read:

1. PED's are available in Kenya and they are much easier to get (e.g., actovegin in banned in the US and not overseas; many PED's require prescription in the US.) without detection.

True, one can buy EPO or HGH over the internet in the States, but suffer the consequences of detection in doing so. This is prime motivation behind someone going south-of-the border rather than using mail-order, in the states. It is A LOT more difficult than in a third world country, going down the street, passing money behind the counter.

It is more difficult in the US not only because of the serious criminal repercussions one might subject themselves to, but also the stigma of doping (cheating) may be much worse in US; whereas, in Kenya, the relatively huge economic rewards brought in from sport might be incentive enough to look away.

If it were so ineffective, I don't think we would ever hear of anyone of note. Yes, Armstrong passed many tests, but he needed to pass every test, while the testers only needed to catch him once (and I believe they did). Remember those Russian middle distance runners from a few years back? The testers thought there was something odd about their samples and did tests to show that they were all coming from the same donor. That's effort, yes?

Was EPO so hard for Hellebuyck to obtain? From what I read, he bought it from a dealer who was anything but difficult to find. Liza Galvan Hunter brought hers back from Mexico no problem. The same with Hesch. Fagan bought it off the internet.

I don't know what this is based on. What is different?

As was mentioned above there quite likely is a huge disparity in the stigma of doping between the two countries, because of the vast difference in the potential economic windfall from winning races, which could result in 'looking away' on many levels.

The list of cheats that passed hundreds of tests in totality, eventually caught for reasons other than tests, includes a lot more athletes than just Armstrong.

Dealers face criminal prosecution, too. The stigma and criminal repercussions are huge deterrents in the states. Maybe not nearly so in Kenya. Couple that with the vast difference in economic windfall, and thus motivation, in Kenya.

I'm not familiar, but how do you know there was no problem, or what she had to go through to get it across the border without detection? Though maybe small(?),there exists the possibility and repercussions and stigma, of getting caught when smuggling.

And thus opened himself up to detection.

I'm repeating myself on all of these points because you are failing to comprehend, or not wishing to accept, what I already said.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

Sciatica Road wrote:

Regarding testing:

3. It is much easier to keep track of athletes for OOC testing in States than in Kenya.

I don't know what this is based on. What is different?

This is the first reason people think of the lack of doping control in Kenya, and a simple google search will bear that out. One source:

John Fahey, president of the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada), said there was a "cloud hanging over them (Kenya)". He said: "For some time, we have been very concerned about the accusations of doping there," going on to describe Kenya as "a location of choice for dopers".

There is no Kenyan anti-doping agency and just one laboratory for that purpose in the whole of the continent – based in South Africa.

More important than evading out of competion testing, may be just getting tipped off. I could see how training in a remote community camp could set up the tip-offs and necessary time delays.

What I'm talking about is from Tyler Hamilton's explanation:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19912623

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"EPO can be detected in the body for a number of hours after it has been taken - the "glowtime". During this time, the cyclist needs to avoid a meeting with the dope tester.

So, during the months of training, they kept track of when they had taken the drug, and tipped each other off by phone whenever a tester appeared in Girona, the town in northern Spain where the cyclists were based. In The Secret Race, co-authored by journalist Daniel Coyle, Hamilton lists three tips:

"Tip one: Wear a watch. Tip Two: Keep your cellphone handy. Tip three: Know your glowtime, how long you'll test positive after you take the substance. What you'll notice is that none of these things is particularly difficult to do."

They were more like "discipline tests, IQ tests" than drug tests, he says.

"If you were careful and paid attention, you could dope and be 99% certain that you would not get caught."

Hmm yes

But the 5000 10000 times also dropped off around 2000/2001 back when the EPO test came in

There were 385 IAAF tests OOC blood tests in the world last year, 0 in Kenya. While there is no country specific data, we can assume that they were distributed in the US, Europe, and maybe Japan, China. Maybe 100 in US, 150 in Europe, 50 in Asia, and the other 83 from the rest of africa or SA and Aus. I don't know, but its not nothing. In Kenya, it is nothing.

That also is not including and USADA OOC blood tests, although I'm not confident in their rigor. I have not found any data on their testing history, so please share if anyone does get specifics

Sciatica Road wrote:

I'm repeating myself on all of these points because you are failing to comprehend, or not wishing to accept, what I already said.

There's a difference between failing to comprehend a concept and simply thinking it's wrong. You and I disagree that the difference in ease in access to PEDs between the United States and Kenya is large enough to limit the degree to which they are used in the US. The fact that one would have to find an unscrupulous doctor, illegal dealer or travel to Mexico and back doesn't appear to be a sufficient disincentive. Of all these North American athletes caught for drugs, I haven't seen anyone comment, "it was so difficult to obtain."

Sciatica Road wrote:

There is no Kenyan anti-doping agency and just one laboratory for that purpose in the whole of the continent – based in South Africa.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics/drug-cheats-are-pushing-the-boundaries-in-athletics-8604176.html

What is your evidence that this reduces the level of out of competition testing in Kenya? It definitely makes it more expensive, having to fly testers roundtrip from South Africa, but what makes you think that it results in fewer tests?

This is all sounds like a whole bunch of conjecture. "Because Tyler Hamilton had someone tip him off, the Kenyans could to." Even if we accept that as true, how does that then make Kenya any different that America or Europe? And what good does it really do someone today? If you had word that an out of competition test was imminent during your "glowtime" what could you do? You could purposefully miss the test, but everyone knows that you are only allowed two missed tests in a given 18 month period, and once you do miss a test, you are flagged for additional out of competition tests. The tale of Tyler would carry more weight in evading positive tests if that's what he had done, but he didn't. He was caught numerous times, so is it either harder to evade than he claims or is he not that smart?

Honey wrote:

There were 385 IAAF tests OOC blood tests in the world last year, 0 in Kenya. While there is no country specific data, we can assume that they were distributed in the US, Europe, and maybe Japan, China. Maybe 100 in US, 150 in Europe, 50 in Asia, and the other 83 from the rest of africa or SA and Aus. I don't know, but its not nothing. In Kenya, it is nothing.

That also is not including and USADA OOC blood tests, although I'm not confident in their rigor. I have not found any data on their testing history, so please share if anyone does get specifics

I believe it's a comprehensive list. On what occasion would Jason Richardson receive an out of competition test from a tester not acting on behalf of a national anti-doping agency?

Morning of a new day in Italy, I can read what somebody else wrote during my night... and I reply to Sciatica Road.

1. No. I don't mean performances become better AFTER the hematocrit levels recover. I mean performances are better AFTER right and hard training, AND AT THE MOMENT OF THE PERFORMANCE THE LEVEL ARE VERY LOW.

This is what happened to ALL my athletes, in every part of the World, from Italian till Chinese.

Gelindo Bordin won Olympics in 1988 with 12.8 Hg and 39.7 Hct. Christopher Kosgei won Gold Medal in steeple in Seville 1999 with 39.8 Hct. At the same time, Genny Di Napoli was in a condition of anaemia when had 17 of Hg and under 50 of Hct, because his NORMAL NATURAL VALUE were over 18 and 53.

This means the values are something individual, and of course who wins with 12.8 of Hct must have in his body something else working in different way. In any case, it's common situation that WHEN THE SHAPE BECOMES BETTER BECAUSE OF TRAINING, THE VALUES OF HCT AND HG DROP DOWN.

This year I had the opportunity, with all the athletes of Chinese Natiunal Team, to do EVERY WEEK blood tests, both at sea level and in altitude. About altitude, we training for about two months before Asian Games in Duoba (2300m), and can be very interesting to see the development of many parameters (not only Hct and Hg) tested.

I think during the next days I can put on line some example regarding the best athletes, and you can see HOW THE CLASSIC POSITION OF PHYSIOLOGY IS NOT RIGHT.

I don't know if in the past somebody could test on weekly basis a Group of 15 athletes for two months. This is very interesting, and I ask to do this for having more data about a practice that gave me, already in the past, results different from the classic and traditional interpretation of training in altitude.

And, between me and you, what Matschinger believes is not very important for me, that believing exactly the opposite produced several athletes able to better WR and to win WCh.

May be you prefer to believe in somebody not winning anything than in somebody working with top athletes of different Countries from more than 40 years. If this is the situation, it's your problem, but this means your mind is already oriented in one direction only, and you refuse to analyze ALL the data we have about training, because you start not from an EMPTY BLACKBOARD to fill step by step, but from a BLACKBOARD already full of wrong hypothesis that you refuse to discuss.

2. It's exactly because performance, training and hct are all interrelated, that I don't believe in the effects of blood doping. Since with the improvement of performances due to good training the hct goes down, I don't see any reason for enhancing, artificially, this value.

Maybe that in cycling, when we have to race every day and we can't control our effort because it depends on the tactic of other runners, to give something every day in order to maintain high level of hct can be effective.

In cycling, during a race with many stages, TRAINING IS CARRIED OUT DURING THE COMPETITION, and there is no possibility to chose a personal type of training when you are competing for 20 days against other cyclists, looking for a final, global result. In other words, there are many periods of the season when it's not possible to divide TRAINING and COMPETITION, and for that reason it's not possible to use the principle of SUPERCOMPENSATION.

But in athletics the final goal is to be able to peak the day of the competition, so we have one situations very clear : TRAINING for the competition.

This means we can use in the best way the principles of OVERCOMPENSATION, modulating intensity and length of recovery according to a precise strategy, completely under the control of the athlete.

So, when you say "you can't argue against the very basic training principles of homeostasis and supercompensation", you think there are no other interpretations of these principles, outside the "classic" interpretation we had for long time (for example, one day working, one day recovering).

Instead, this is exactly what we do with the most advanced training systems : more intensity followed by more recovery. This is exactly the way for using in better way the principles of supercompensation, that in cycling is not possible to use during a competition with 20 stages.

The traditional and classic methodology, regarding training for endurance, created a lot of fake myths. I remember, for example, the myth that you lose in 48 hours some percentage of your aerobic power if you rest (this was typical of Lydiard system, and of the best coaches of 50 years ago). I remember theory about "symmetric training" alternating one hard day with one easy day. I'm technically born with all these principles. But, coaching for 50 years at every level, step by step I discovered something different.

I worked with the University of Torino with more than 150 athletes of different nationalities for a research, lasting about 15 years (from 1985 till 2001) about blood values in connection with their training, and I had combined data that give a picture of training effects very different from the picture coming from all the researches of physiologysts.

Put in your mind that it's very difficult, for any physiologist, to follow top athletes in longitudinal way. This means they have sporadic and isolated tests, and in this way they produce "static pictures" of some situation (for example, data at the end of a training period).

But training is a "dynamic process", not a static process, and under this point of view I NEVER READ ANY RESEARCH REGARDING THE PHYSIOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT OF TOP ATHLETES DUE TO THEIR TRAINING, TESTING WITH CONTINUITY THE DIFFERENCES PRODUCED BY TRAINING.

For a researcher, it's very much easier to investigate the effects of some PED than the effect of training.

But what many don't understand is that we cannot transfer data obtained in this way from one category of people to another category. EPO was created for giving 30% of more ability to transport Oxygen, for people needing dyalisis.

I read, in some article, that "with EPO for a runner is possible to increase of 30% his aerobic ability", like all runners had some kidney disease.

I read that Chatal Lombard improved of more than 2 minutes his PB in 10000m after taking EPO, without considering the big skip of mental motivation he had after the assumption of this drug, bringing him to train with a lot of higher volume and intensity (which before refused to do), and this is considered as example for what top runners can have as advantage, like top runners had the same qualities, and training, of Lombard.

I read of a research from WADA in Kenya with a Group of Young runners between 10:30 and 11:00 in 3000m, that after one month of EPO and training were able to improve of an average of 30 seconds, and this shows that "EPO works with Kenyan, too". This research is so stupid that I lost all the confidence in the KNOWLEDGE of WADA about doping, or in the HONESTLY of WADA, because if they don't know there are no connections between the weakest kenyan they can select and top runners they don't know anything about methodology, training and physiology (so this is not their profession), but if they know, THEY DELIBERATELY TRY TO PUT SMOKE IN THE EYES OF PEOPLE FOR SUPPORTING THEIR ACTIVITY IN ORDER TO EARN MORE IMPORTANCE AND MORE MONEY.

In 2013, a Group of Polish amateurs staying for 3 weeks in Iten decided to organize a competition of 3000m on the track of Kamarin (2300m of altitude), putting some prize : 7000 Ksh, 5000 and 3000 for the best 3 times (about 90 USD for the winner), open to Young boys and girls without managers and never running in national competitions.

There were 68 participants divided in 4 different races :

the winner ran 8'16" (and with two months of training with me won bronze medal in World Youth Championships in 1500m running 3'39"), 4 ran under 8'30", 14 under 8'45", 32 under 9', and ALL the runners under 9'42". This means that, for finding runners in Kenya from 10'30" and 11', the authors of the research were wonderful talent scouts, chosing the worst among hundreds Young runners..... and they passed off this like a "scientific research" !

3. Yes, the position of Seppelt not only lacks of credibility, but his report was something built in wrong way, only for creating a "scoop" with very little connections with the reality.

He remained in Kenya 4 days only, so no "deep investigation". He received the phone number of a doctor giving PEDS to some athlete by a coach of Kapsabet, approaching him during one of the AK meeting in Nakuru, thinking he was a new manager. When Seppelt explained to be a journalist, the coach told him he could have a scoop going to meet the doctor in Kapsabet, and that could give his phone number is Seppelt could pay good money.

This happened, Seppelt called the doctor saying he was a new German manager wanting to put a new training camp in Kapsabet, and obtained an appointment for the next day.

The next day, they met in the clinic of the doctor, very Young, who went to study in UK and when came back Kenya had the idea to create an advanced lab for testing in deep way all the diseases that normal people have to face in Kenya.

But, due to the lack of money from normal people, the lab didn't work too much, and the doctor had still a lot of debts for paying the facilities he bought.

So, when he saw the possibility to earn some money creating, and following, a new training camp (Seppelt promised to pay the doctor as responsible of the camp, and asked him to rent a house for the athletes), he wanted to appear able to support the athletes in every thing, from training to accommodation, including illegal actions for enhancing their performances, without any risk.

Seppelt recorded with a small hidden camera his meeting, and next day went Nairobi, where could find the opportunity to buy in easy way some EPO in one shop inside Hilton Hotel. The next day he went home, and after two days there was all the service in TV, speaking about "deep investigation" and "widespread doping"....

It's true doping exists also in Kenya. But the idea of "widespread" is not true, and is a mediatic reaction to the scoop of Seppelt. Following this scoop and all the wrong and "sensational" pseudo-allegations of Seppelt, WADA found a horse to ride , having mediatic echo in order to increase the importance of the Company itself.

This brings to ridiculous conclusions, suche as "Kenya without National Antidoping Authority must be banned from the international competition".

I ask to do a very simple investigation : go to count how many Kenyan athletes there are among top 100 in the World at the end of one season, and go to see how many of them are positive for doping. Go to see in which position were the athletes positive during the last two years (17 athletes), go to calculate the percentage of positive inside this number, and after tell me if there is some evidence of "widespread doping".

After this, go to see the same for other Countries, of course not considering who is in top 100 in the world (because the most part of Countries don't have anybody...), but who is in the top 20 of nheir national lists, and see the percentage of athletes banned.

After all this, you can finally speak about the diffusion of doping in Kenya, compared with European and American Countries.

EPO worked just fine for rashid ramzi

And he was just the token CERA bust

no doubt the authorities avoided a major scandal by only busting a minimum number for peds