Which was more impressive Killians Hardrock CR or Emma Coburn's AR

I respect both but wrote:

I would say Emma because more competition in that AR really as simple as that. I get the sense people might say Hardrock because they think going up a hill is inherently tougher in some way. What makes a competition tough is always about how fast its done not the course. I probably have to add you have to be trying at the time too to make people believe its the new standard as hardrock continues to have a question mark :)

Build a track above 11,000ft elevation and ask her to run the same time. Then do it at 12,000ft and 13,000ft and 14,000ft. Oh, and make her do it all in the same day. Oh, and then she still wouldn't be doing it on an incline, or probably in poor weather because track meets get cancelled for anything.

Max King ran 8:31 and we can pretend Killian is pretty close to that (based on Kind's XC experience, I'd think he's probably faster than Jornet in the steeple). Men run about 10% faster than women. So an 8:31 translates after the 10% addition into a 9:22. Coburn ran 9:11. Could Jornet run 8:20 in the steeple hard to say? Unlikely.

leseclairs wrote:

simon peter wrote:

I've never heard of Hardrock.

I have heard of the Steeplechase.

You've heard of steeplechase because anyone can do it.

Also, Hardrock goes 100 miles THROUGH lightning storms. Track meets get cancelled if there is a storm WITHIN 100 miles.

Third place male and his pacer at Hardrock got struck by lightning at 14,000ft, by the way. Try asking a track runner to do ANYTHING at 14,000ft.

They have a mile on top of Pikes Peak, ran about 4:48 last year.

And btw do they test for EPO at ultras?

Isn't Killian doped up?

That's why you won't see him at IAAF World Mountain Championships. He'll be dodging drug tests with races like this and tackling FKTs while NatGeo films.

Some people care about speed hiking, I'm not one of them.

S. Canaday wrote:

Mt. Washington ...good example. We did have Marco De Gasperi come run the race in 2012. He finished in 1:01:38 there for 5th place. He is usually pretty close to Killian (may even be a better climber on the more runnable mountain courses).

But people consider it a road race. (I treat Mt. WA like a proper mountain though and it's a good climb!).

I wouldn't expect Kilian to run the Mt. Washington Road Race, because it is a road race, but I would LOVE to see him run the Presi Traverse. Myself and a friend ran it and (while we are nowhere near pro trail runners) it took us just over 10 hours because the weather turned 3 miles in on the first peak at treeline and we ran the first 12 miles in hurricane force winds. Anyways, I think he would have a ton of fun on that traverse.

I love your VO2Max Productions videos by the way. Keep it up!

leseclairs wrote:

simon peter wrote:

I've never heard of Hardrock.

I have heard of the Steeplechase.

You've heard of steeplechase because anyone can do it.

Also, Hardrock goes 100 miles THROUGH lightning storms. Track meets get cancelled if there is a storm WITHIN 100 miles.

Third place male and his pacer at Hardrock got struck by lightning at 14,000ft, by the way. Try asking a track runner to do ANYTHING at 14,000ft.

I don't think ultra running's disregard for the health of its participants makes it especially intense, just stupid.

Captain Oblivious wrote:

If the two raced in a steeple, could Emma get over the three foot barriers that men have to go over?

Yeah probably if she was a man she'd be running 7:45.

Are you really that stupid.

leseclairs wrote:Build a track above 11,000ft elevation and ask her to run the same time. Then do it at 12,000ft and 13,000ft and 14,000ft. Oh, and make her do it all in the same day. Oh, and then she still wouldn't be doing it on an incline, or probably in poor weather because track meets get cancelled for anything.

What does the elevation matter? The OP asked "Which was more impressive Killians Hardrock CR or Emma Coburn's AR"?

Killian's course record is relative to the previous Hardrock times of other runners who also had to deal with that same elevation. Therefore, the fact that Killian's race was at elevation is immaterial.

Coburn's record is relative to the previous time of any American woman that has run the Steeplechase event. The previous Steeplechase record was not set at elevation so that the elevation of her race isn't a factor in her accomplishment.

Basically, Killian doesn't get "bonus points" for his record having occurred at elevation because his time is solely being compared to other people who had to deal with that exact same elevation.

Same thing goes for the distance. Killian's Hardrock record was set against other people also running 100 miles.

Coburn's was set against other people running 3000 meters with barriers (at female height, yes).

The question is: which record[\b] is more impressive?

To me, that is easily Coburn because she was competing against a much tougher standard in terms of both the quality and quantity of competition in the Steeplechase chase vs the realitively small and less distinguished field that would make up a particular ultra race that is held one time per year.

James Hewlett wrote:

The question is: which record is more impressive?

To me, that is easily Coburn because she was competing against a much tougher standard in terms of both the quality and quantity of competition in the Steeplechase chase vs the realitively small and less distinguished field that would make up a particular ultra race that is held one time per year.

This shows how little you know about the field that ran Hardrock this year.

Sage,

With all due respect, Max King can win Mount Washington. You dismiss that he ran 62-min in 2012. Look at yourself at how hit and miss Mount Washington is... he could run 62 last year and yet probably run 58 next year. Look at Joe Gray. You said Joe Gray could never win and on any given day he thrashed it on a sh!tty day running 59 min.

Can we please stop spreading rumors that Max is not a good climber? I have experienced his climbing abilities in Poland and it is phenomenal.

And I completely agree, Sage, that Kilian could never approach 2:10 for a Marathon. That is not in his skill set.

Emma will never touch 2:10 for the marathon...EVER!

You're right, the field at one particular ultra trumps every American woman to ever run the Steeplechase.

/dumbas.s

Anatomy 101 wrote:

Captain Oblivious wrote:

If the two raced in a steeple, could Emma get over the three foot barriers that men have to go over?

Yeah probably if she was a man she'd be running 7:45.

Are you really that stupid.

You dropped the ball there. Try again?

I mean this with no disrespect to Max, but he would not win Mt. WA unless Joe Gray, Eric Blake and I don't show up. We've all been in the top 3 on the hill the last 3 years has been the same for a reason...the race is very consistent. (The weather is not though).And 58min? Only one American has cracked 59:00 in the history of the race.As far as Max's uphill goes, he did the treadmill uphill challenge at (15% incline for 15min on the treadmill) and barely cracked 1.5 miles. Anton Krupicka almost out-climbed him in the first 8 miles at Speedgoat last year.Max is a great runner with great range that can clean my clock at pretty much anything, but he's not the best climber on long steep climbs (i.e. usually in the mountains).And Mt. WA is not "hit or miss"... it's a actually a very consistent race. Reason I've sucked there the last two years is that mixing it up with ultras like Transvulcania a month before the race (or doing a 50-miler a week before the race) isn't specific to the demands. When I ran 58:27 there I was coming of a hilly 1:06 half marathon (much more specific) and 2:18 at the trials so my fitness was better than it is now.

Jofl wrote:

Sage,

With all due respect, Max King can win Mount Washington. You dismiss that he ran 62-min in 2012. Look at yourself at how hit and miss Mount Washington is... he could run 62 last year and yet probably run 58 next year. Look at Joe Gray. You said Joe Gray could never win and on any given day he thrashed it on a sh!tty day running 59 min.

Can we please stop spreading rumors that Max is not a good climber? I have experienced his climbing abilities in Poland and it is phenomenal.

Troll much?[But in the slight chance that you are actually being serious (I honestly can't tell with some hard-core ultra runners)]: I don't consider myself a track runner since i was a rather average NCAA DI guy ( track PRs of 3:55 - 1500m, 14:29 - 5km, 29:47 -10km), but I go up 14ers all the time.And I can assure you that many a faster track runner (Mario Macias, Andy Wacker, Joe Gray etc.) can hold their own at 14,000'. It also should be noted that the guy hit by lightning (Adam Campbell) is actually a 2:24ish marathoner with little experience at 100s and he ran a great race at Hardrock to get 3rd!

leseclairs wrote:

simon peter wrote:

I've never heard of Hardrock.

I have heard of the Steeplechase.

You've heard of steeplechase because anyone can do it.

Also, Hardrock goes 100 miles THROUGH lightning storms. Track meets get cancelled if there is a storm WITHIN 100 miles.

Third place male and his pacer at Hardrock got struck by lightning at 14,000ft, by the way. Try asking a track runner to do ANYTHING at 14,000ft.

shukhov wrote:

Isn't Killian doped up?

That's why you won't see him at IAAF World Mountain Championships. He'll be dodging drug tests with races like this and tackling FKTs while NatGeo films.

he wouldn't show at a race like that because it's basically XC with a bit more climbing. he'd be pretty mediocre i suspect.

Collin wrote:

RunTiger wrote:

The simple fact is that there are 14 year old girls who would beat this guy in a mile race.

He's 5'6", 125 pounds, and has a VO2 max of 92. I remember an interview in which he talked about an 'easy' 20 mile road run on hills in San Fran at sub-6 pace as part of his taper for Western States. If he trained specifically for a couple months, dude would run 2:10 to low-2:teens for 26.2. If he focused his career on marathon, he'd probably be the best white guy out there. I'm not sure what his mile time would be, but I'd be surprised if he wasn't under 4:10 right now without ever doing speedwork. You have no idea how insanely fit this guy is.

He can probably run all these times, on the type of course where you ran your 1:10 half (250 feet loss per mile).