Alyssa Montano - Shaking My Head

lulz wrote:

There is also a possibility that she is coming in with too high of a tone, which may make the first 200m fast and easy, but leave little for the end.

Or maybe she's tone deaf, and doesn't hear all the tones.

So does Montano go out in 58 tomorrow like she should or does she do another 56 just because she can?

I almost hope she runs another 56 - I would hate to think her spirit has been broken.

So does Montano go out in 58 tomorrow like she should or does she do another 56 just because she can?

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One factor was that in the WC 800 they had two prior rounds to go through, so the fatigue from those prior races could have impacted her in that last 100.

With just a single race, perhaps she may be able to hold off her competitors in the final straightaway.

To be honest I think she should go out in 55.

I'm still waiting for an example of a 800m runner built like Montano over the last 50 years of competitive T&F that consistently positively split +6 and was world class?

A lot of physiology mumbo jumbo on this thread, a lot of hypotheses by different posters, but not one example of a runner physically similar to Montano who consistently positively split +6 while medaling in WCs/OGs.

The silence is deafening.

one example? wrote:One example is all I'm asking for. When we think of "big" 800m runners, Mutola is the first image that comes to most of our minds. She was 5'5" 139 pounds. Montano is 5'7" 118 pounds. Mutola was bigger, more muscular, and didn't routinely positive split 6 seconds.

One example? Anyone?

Oh, I don't know... Mutola?

The top 7 all through in sub-27. There's Mutola hitting 400 in 56 low and finishing 1:57 high, just under +6, right behind the bigger Ana Quirot (your claim about Mutola's weight smokes crack) in 56 flat and 1:56 high, nearly a +5 and a medal. Nurutdinova led with that 55 high and finished with a +5 1:55 high and a silver.

8 years later,

Mutola's no natural sprinter like Montano, but still through in 26.6. Hits 400 just under 56, and finishes in 1:56.16 for a fat positive +4.xx. And there's Helena Fuchsova, a big elite 400 runner in a world-class final running +8.

Big splits aren't just for big people. Janeth Jepkosgei was 55.86 and 1:57 low in Daegu, +5.xx. For a medal.

Before you start moaning about +5 isn't +6, Montano didn't split +6 in Moscow, she split +5.71. In Daegu she split about +5.5. Splitting +5.xx is not uncommon at all.

I suppose now you'll want her to switch to +4.xx to be like the slightly-evener-splitting Mutola. Never mind that Montano's a natural sprinter and Mutola wasn't, let's see how she can get to 1:57 low with a +4.50. 57 flat? Nope, that's 1:58.50. 56.50 + 61.00 = 1:57.50. Still too fast for the likes of you, I gar-on-tee. You'd be losing your minds if she was by herself at 56.9.

But enough about how other people start. As I said earlier, Montano has started slower, and bombed. Nobody has come up with an example of her starting in 28 and finishing well, because there isn't one.

AlSalzar wrote:

pedrosa wrote:

If she (and her coach) think that time trialing gives her the best chance of a medal then fair enough. But she has to be fresh for the final. There's no excuse for the way she runs the rounds.

In her heat most of the girls had never even broken 2 minutes. If she can't beat this level of athlete off a slow pace then she needs to have a serious look at her training.

A+

This comment is right on. Very poor coaching costs this tough and talented runner. Alyssa, get a new coach who can prepare you to run the heats properly and how to race. The Johnny Gray / Solomon style of racing (time trialling) will not work as well as learning how to race.

lulz wrote:

I'd love to see what happens if she runs a bit slower. She at least put it all in and knew that she didn't leave it out there on the track.

She is gorgeous, too. Too bad she is married. Between Brenda, her, and Ajee (and all the randoms in the top 10) it is easy on the eyes to watch the event. Almost to the level of the US hurdles with Rollins, Queen, Castlin, Lolo, and a bunch of others.

^^^ This ^^^

On all levels.

agip wrote:

So does Montano go out in 58 tomorrow like she should or does she do another 56 just because she can?

I almost hope she runs another 56 - I would hate to think her spirit has been broken.

Surprised by your post. Learning is a good thing. And it has nothing to do with her spirit being broken.

She could be a world beater going out in 28.5, 57 with plenty left in the tank. I'd hate to think she wastes it all for an entire career. Very, very sad if that happens.

track chick wrote:

To be honest I think she should go out in 55.

54!!!

AlSalzar wrote:

pedrosa wrote:

If she (and her coach) think that time trialing gives her the best chance of a medal then fair enough. But she has to be fresh for the final. There's no excuse for the way she runs the rounds.

In her heat most of the girls had never even broken 2 minutes. If she can't beat this level of athlete off a slow pace then she needs to have a serious look at her training.

A+

This comment is right on. Very poor coaching costs this tough and talented runner. Alyssa, get a new coach who can prepare you to run the heats properly and how to race. The Johnny Gray / Solomon style of racing (time trialling) will not work as well as learning how to race.

I've always been a bit bothered by the notion of a professional runner being "coached". Running is not that complex...it's not essentially a "game". If you have great talent, you go out and try and get to the finish to defeat the other runners. It does not take much thinking to know that if I go out " to fast", I might not be able hold on til the end. After all, I can know the PB of the other runners in my race. And I know what I am cable of.

If Mosanto was just .2 or .4 seconds slower at 400, she probably would have medaled? But it's easy to misjudge by that much.

The other runners knew she probably could not handle that 1st 400....and they were correct...which is why they let her go. But it was close!

Huh Man wrote:

agip wrote:

So does Montano go out in 58 tomorrow like she should or does she do another 56 just because she can?

I almost hope she runs another 56 - I would hate to think her spirit has been broken.

Surprised by your post. Learning is a good thing. And it has nothing to do with her spirit being broken.

She could be a world beater going out in 28.5, 57 with plenty left in the tank. I'd hate to think she wastes it all for an entire career. Very, very sad if that happens.

__

a) well I said 'I almost hope'

b) have you read about her? she is a free spirit artist type - she has a bohemian spirit to her

c) have you see her tweets? They are defiant and hurt -

I am not in this world 2 live up 2 other ppl's expectations. I am here 2 make everything I touch better. Feelin energized by possibilities

I have decided to open my heart to my supporters while emotion is raw for 15 minutes, starting now

@Alysia800 I have heard people say you should change the way u run ur races I think ur amazing and should not change a thing

‏@Alysia800 18 Aug

@miike1980 couldn't agree with you more. Thanks for the reinforcement!

As I scroll past hurtful comments to loving ones, I can't help but think why bother @'ING me if you have nothing encouraging to say.

__

so see what I mean? She is a rara avis - I think to some degree she wants to preserve her independence, even if it costs her wins and money.

agip wrote:

have you read about her? she is a free spirit artist type - she has a bohemian spirit to her

so see what I mean? She is a rara avis - I think to some degree she wants to preserve her independence, even if it costs her wins and money.

so what are you saying, she is like a female Gabe Jennings? But while Gabe was nuts, he ran pretty smart (more than we can say so far for AM).

(oh, and another way of what you said is: she's stubborn, and doesn't want to listen to others).

Bad Wigins wrote:

Oh, I don't know... Mutola? I suppose now you'll want her to switch to +4.xx to be like the slightly-evener-splitting Mutola.

I asked a simple question -- "Is there one example of an 800m runner built like Montano over the last 50 years of competitive T&F that consistently positively split +6 and was world class?"

You're response was Mutola, and you cherry picked two of her races with her highest positive splits to make your point. Unfortunately, these cherry picked races don't tell the whole story with respect to Mutola's racing strategy:

1992 OG 55.73/1:57.49 +6.03 5th place

1991 WC 56.60/1:57.63 +4.40 4th place

2000 OG 56.00/1:56.15 +4.15 1st place

2008 Pre 58.00/1:59.24 +3.24 1st place

2004 OG 57.00/1:56.51 +2.51 4th place

2003 WC 59.00/1:59.89 +1.89 1st place

1999 WC 57.63/1:56.72 +1.46 2nd place

1997 WC 58.32/1:57.59 +0.95 3rd place

2005 WC 60.72/1:59.71 -1.73 4th place

Mutola was a versatile runner, who could place highly in a variety of different race strategies. She could front run, she could sit in the middle of the pack, she could sit near the back of the pack, she could have large positive splits, she could have modest positive splits, she could even negative split, etc. She is not a good example of someone who consistently had significant positive splits and was world class.

I'm guessing there isn't a 800m athlete that satisfies my original question. The fact that Montano has large positive splits every time she races doesn't bode well for her with historical 800m racing as context. She'll probably get a medal at some point, but may not be maximizing her race potential with this strategy.

Front runner Mutola 2nd laps

1991 WC 61.03 +4.40 4th place

1992 OG 61.75 +6.03 5th place

1997 WC 59.27 +0.95 3rd place

1999 WC 59.09 +1.46 2nd place

2000 OG 60.15 +4.15 1st place

2003 WC 60.89 +1.89 1st place

2004 OG 59.51 +2.51 4th place

2005 WC 58.99 -1.73 4th place

2008 Pre 61.24 +3.24 1st place

lol get a life dude. it is a messageboard. if you are going to cry then go jerk off or get drunk off some vodka cranberries at the bar and cry it out.

I stopped reading after 1:44. When the guy could have gone into the 1:42s at some point, who cares if he ran 1:44 and likely was doped up to high heaven on EPO given his country?

It's irrelevant when you aren't even consistently looking at the same races. You casually are looking at people that are running 1-3 seconds off of their PRs or people that are running the race nearly 15 seconds faster (which is going to have significant differences in energy requirements).

So you don't like looking at East Germans that used steroids, but are happy to use athletes that used EPO? How does that make any fvcking sense?

That has little to do with what I am talking about. Slower in the rounds would likely results in substantially slower times for her heat, giving her a chance to run eve slower. Plus, I am not arguing she should go out much slower at all. I think her acceleration it perfect from 0-50 but sometimes she over does it the next 50 in an attempt to secure a strong position/guarantee herself to be in front, which I think is unnecessary since she is already going to be leading.

I only post with this name. I don't know what you are going on about.

Muscle tone is pretty well documented. If she could come into the rounds flatter/more relaxed and run them easy enough, it'll likely help the end of her race. It's not too different from the sprinters that come in after substantial rest and improve throughout the rounds. She puts too much into the rounds before the final. I would argue that is hurting her results far more than running the first 400 too hard.

Again, the only logical conclusion to people saying she is using some atrocious tactics is to believe she should be running substantially faster. At this point, she is a fairly consistent 1:57-1:58 girl. Purely speculating, I think she is currently the fastest clean athlete in the women's 800 and unless she had some special sauce, she isn't going to get that last 200 to be competitive enough to win an extremely fast final in a global championship.

Bad Wigins wrote:

sp23 wrote:

(Juantorena, rant, spit, snarl, bitch, flame, agree with self under different names)

Juantorena was, besides a freak of nature and exception to many rules, a racer who never really reached his full potential in time trials. He was brand new to the event when he ran his fastest times, and his pacing was far from optimal, but it was good enough to win and set WR's, and that was good enough for him.

If he'd had more 800 experience at his peak, he'd have been even faster, possibly 1:42. By the time he had the experience, his speed was gone.

Boy, you really are a major d*ck, aren't you?

It turned into an excellent thread anyway, in spite of it's being marred (like pretty much everything on LR) by the a**holishness of guys like you.

I'll take a minute to set you straight on one or two things.

I don't post here much. In fact I don't spend much time here, period.

You, OTOH, obviously spend a HELL of a lot of time here. (Your name pops up often enough to make that very clear.)

Guys like you, who spend a huge part of their lives trolling the internet, generally don't have very much else going on, so they spend absurd amounts of time and energy trying to pump themselves up on anonymous message-boards.

They often go to ridiculous lengths in those efforts, like posting under multiple identities, having 'discussions' with themselves, copying other people's identities, etc.

Then they tend to accuse anyone who disagrees with them, or makes them look bad, of using those same kinds of stupidity.

I've never used, or even tried to use, multiple identities

on any kind of internet forum anywhere. If I ever got to that level of pathetic-ness (like the place you're at, maybe?), I think I'd kill myself.

I'm on this thread (and anywhere else on LRC) as sp23, and that's it.

I don't know how many ID's you use (though it wouldn't surprise me if it's a lot); I use one.

The fact that there seem to be a bunch of guys here cheering my post is probably due to the fact that I'm not the only person who thinks you're a major a**hole.

So there isn't any 'agreeing with self under different names' in my input to this thread.

There also wasn't any 'ranting,' spitting,' snarling,' bitching,' or flaming,' just a pretty good, and thoughtful rejoinder to your obnoxious post of last night.

I have a short fuse, to be sure, but it's always for cause.

I get impatient with stupidity, and bad thinking passed off as logic(like a lot of what was posted in the first half of this thread), and also with pricks like yourself, who are hostile, hateful, arrogant, and generally obnoxious with NO cause, and who always degrade the tone of any discussion they enter.

As to the content of the argument, I'm actually completely open to alternate points of view, and willing and anxious to learn --if there's actually something to learn.

I have no idea if you're actually the Gigantic Expert on Exercise Physiology that you make yourself out to be. You might be, though I tend to doubt it.

Even if you are, it doesn't make a lot of difference.

You haven't presented much of a case, haven't supported it well at all, have been a complete a**hole about the way you present it, and when anyone points up the flaws in your hypothesis, you tend to change the subject, and just resort to being an even bigger dick than you were to start with.

I gave you an excellent counterexample to your Grand Hypothesis, and you dismissed it out of hand.

Juantorena was 'a freak,' and 'an exception to all rules,' and therefore he's irrelevant to the discussion? Oh, okay. That's brilliant.

Actually, he's an excellent test-case for the Grand Theory of 800 pacing you so pompously presented --a big, strong, sprint-oriented half-miler with great success.

Only problem is, he doesn't fit your theory, he completely contradicts it.

And his splits are *not*, as you suggest, an exception to the rule. In fact they fit right in.

As I stated, the vast majority of super-fast 800s, over several decades at least (and illustrated beautifully by the list of WR 800 times over that long period), show small (like one to three-second) positive splits.

Juantorena's races fit right in.

Is it possible he'd have run even faster if he ran *huge* positive splits, like you apparently want him to do?

Sure it's possible, but we have no way to know that, and no particular reason to believe it, while we do have lots of good reasons to doubt it.

Can you dig around in history and find a few very-fast races with big positive splits? Yeah, you can find a few, here and there. AFAICT, none of them have differentials as big as Montano's, consistent around 6 and even 7 seconds.

And the ones that are fairly close tend to look like lousy examples, as the people that produce them always have even-faster races with much smaller differentials.

Yeah, Mutola ran a couple of very-fast races with a +5 or so, but she ran even-faster races around +2, and in fact she sometimes ran with negative splits.

If you take a thorough look at her career, she doesn't support your Grand Theory very well. In fact, she makes you look kind of dumb.

If you have a valid case to make, you should make it a whole lot better than you have.

Either way, you should try really hard not to be such a dick about it.

Than you wouldn't have to worry about so many guys cheering me along when I show you up.

This is way past my time allotment for LRC this week.

Have a nice night.

one example? wrote:

Is there one example of an 800m runner built like Montano over the last 50 years of competitive T&F that consistently positively split +6 and was world class?

Yep, that's exactly the question I asked him, by implication, and he sure doesn't seem to have answered it.

Yep. And that's part of the point.

If we had reason to believe that she and her coach had carefully examined the issue, and scientifically determined that this is somehow the most efficient way for her to run, that would be one thing.

Instead, all we ever hear is "this is just the way I run,"

"it's the way I've *always* run," "I just like to throw myself out there."

And anyone who suggests she might need to re-think is being 'hurtful.'

She seems like a genuinely sweet kid, and I felt horrible listening to her sob inconsolably after that race, but Jesus, when you see this stuff you can't help but think MAYBE she really is just stupidly stubborn and closed-minded, and maybe her coach is no help.