THREE KENYANS BANNED FOR DOPING

Barakus Obama wrote:

Ever heard of research done with EPO and placebo groups? Guess which groups had most benefit? One of the athletes confessed that he realised he was on EPO during the research because of his massive improvement and how he always felt in top shape.

I could take 20 people off the street, train them for 6 weeks, and one of them would swear his massive improvement was due to the bandaid I'd put on his nose.

if you took the regular joe blow who has a beer belly and give him steriods, would you agree that he could possibly gain 10 pounds of muscle?

now take an army veteran who takes karate lessons and has discipline. maybe he has a better genetic response to drugs. if you give him steroids, he might gain 18 pounds of muscle because he works harder than joe blow.

in this instance, we can follow the logic that an "elite" athlete like a bodybuilder champion can benefit even more than the average person.

if possible that an elite runner with superior running technique, strides, pacing and superior heart valves and superior skeletal structure can benefit even more than an average person off the street.

May be you don't have idea about the Hct of the athletes. Instead, I have not only idea, but several data, and I can tell you that :

1. The best Kenyan athletes have LOW HEMATOCRIT. The best runners I had NEVER went over 42, when in shape.

2. The best Kenyan athletes have HIGH globular volume (MCV). While for caucasian athletes this is about 85-88, for the top Kenyans is about 105-110.

3. The best Kenyan athletes have very low viscosity. This fact reduces the periferal resistance about blood circulation, allowing their heart to work less for bringing the same quantity of O2 to muscle fibers.

4. Because I believe in training, and in the results, I had several experiences with the University in Torino. What I discovered is that ALWAYS, growing the shape, the levels of Hematocrit and Haemoglobin are goind down.

So : when you run faster, you have a level of Hct and Hgb lower than when you are out of shape. Final values are an effect, not the CAUSE of performances.

I give you an example of blood tests I had with Christopher Koskei, who was the only Kenyan winning a Gold medal in WCH 1999, athletes I started to follow from Oct 1998, after one year without any result (8'48" in steeple).

In the original table, that years ago I sent Malmo and already is in some collection about what I wrote, we have every data organised in columns and rows. Here is only as text, and I hope can be clear in any case.

BLOOD VALUES OF CHRISTOPHER KOSKEI (YEAR 1999)

Date

Mar, 16

Jul, 8

Aug, 2

Training Level Mediocre Very good Very good

Shape Level Mediocre Very good Very good

Days of Staying at sea-level 12 9 4

WBC 4.98 5.50 5.44

RBC 4.49 3.96 3.85

HGB 13.4 12.3 11.6

HCT 42.8 40.6 38.8

MCV 96.2 102.4 100.6

MCH 34.5 32.0 31.4

MCHC 33.8 32.8 33.0

PLT 366 388 328

Urea 33 32 33

Creatinin 1,36 1,50 1,18

Uric Acid 5.6 5.3 5.7

Colesterol 88 92 86

Triglycerids 104 98 102

Total Bilirubin 0,5 0,7 0,6

Total Proteins 8,2 8,8 9,2

Albumin 5,6 6.0 5,2

AST 38 36 36

ALT 16 22 23

YGT 9 6 8

Sodium 198 204 190

Potassium 5,3 5,6 5,3

Chlorine 116 108 102

Iron 80 64 76

Magnesium 2,08 2,28 1,80

Transferrin 146 155 172

Aptoglobin 34 50 44

Ferritin 154 86 64

Folic Acid 9 ng/ml 21 ng/ml 19 ng/ml

Vit. B 12 724 pg/ml 784 pg/ml 750 pg/ml

I have in my computer also other data about the 800m runner Kenneth Kimwetich (1'43"03 / 2'13"49 in 1000m), about some Italian maraton runner woman (Maura Viceconte, 2:23:47 and 31:05:57) and about Mosop 2003 and Kemboi 2003. For ALL OF THEM we have the same trend : when they are able running faster, the level of their Hct and Hgb is lower.

May be I'm a visionary, but can some among all the great scientists posting in LR explain me WHY this is the trend for athletes RUNNING FASTER WITH THEIR TRAINING ONLY (Kenyans, Italians, Ukrains as Lebid), and how this reality can be combined with the idea that IF HCT and HGB are higher, an athlete can run faster ?

I want also to congratulate with all people that, not knowing anything about me and my style of life, speak about "money", "doper", "cheater" and so and so.

If this is the average of American young people who have this idea about the most important values of the life (solidarity, tollerance, ability in discussing, love for what they do, trust in other people and in the loyalty),

I think your great Country can't have a shining future.

But, of course, I hope that the percentage of aggressive idiots in your Society can be very much lower than what appears in Letsrun.

Oh bullshit. Far too sweeping a statement. Kenya and Ethiopia are the best running nations with or without drug use. Everyone clean and they're still the best. Go to Kenya or Ethiopia and you'll see what you don't easily see in the West - kids running/walking everywhere. Kids w/ excellent running form - often barefoot. Running. At high altitude.

wq40r89asdjh;kla wrote:

Do you ever wonder why virtually every top East African runner comes from one of about five tribes?

______________________________________________________________

Tribes? I'll give you a tribe...The world record in the 4x one mile is held by

Ireland not Kenya.

Ireland has 4 million people -- Kenya has 43 million...Kenyas success since the 90's is built on drugs.

Without their drugs, the mythical tribes of Kenya do not impress all that much.[/quote]

sure but times would be different.

[quote]dkjkljd wrote:

Oh bullshit. Far too sweeping a statement. Kenya and Ethiopia are the best running nations with or without drug use. Everyone clean and they're still the best. Go to Kenya or Ethiopia and you'll see what you don't easily see in the West - kids running/walking everywhere. Kids w/ excellent running form - often barefoot.

_______________________________________________________________

Guess you haven't been to Ireland yet! I have. In the 1980's I saw Irish kids running cross country barefoot in the snow....not a joke, I saw it.

Ethiopia has 91 million people, Kenya has 43 million people.

Ireland has 4 million people. Irish tribe concedes nothing.

Renato Canova wrote: For ALL OF THEM we have the same trend : when they are able running faster, the level of their Hct and Hgb is lower.

i concede ignorance on this type of analysis. it's very different from what tyler hamilton was talking about in regards to hematocrit.

if what you're saying is true, then i hope you have continued success.

Renato Canova wrote: For ALL OF THEM we have the same trend : when they are able running faster, the level of their Hct and Hgb is lower.

It's well known that training hard tends to lower hematocrit.

EPO can be used to counter or even reverse this trend and thus result in better performances than what would have been possible with the hard training alone.

I expect that there are clean 2:06 guys. My point is that with the exception of people who get caught doping we really have no idea who is clean and who isn't. So there may, as Renato claims, be some clean 2:03-2:04 guys and maybe they're so fit that something like EPO won't improve them at all, though I'd be more convinced of that if someone who didn't have a vested interest in that being true made the claim. Dick Pound isn't the only knowledgeable person who thinks that idea is nonsense. Peter Snell does too.

But just because there may be some guys running 2:03-2:04 cleanly who cannot improve any more does not mean that a "clean" 2:05-2:06 guy can't improve to 2:03-2:04 by doping.

Your example of the Japanese is very interesting. They've actually had at least one guy run 2:06. I should remember his name, I had dinner with him a couple years ago, but can't. But the Japanese were the one post industrial country whose marathon runners were turning in times that were comparable to what the East African runners were doing for decades. Now they aren't doing that anymore. It's odd to me that suddenly such a gap has opened after such a long time.

VoR wrote:

It's well known that training hard tends to lower hematocrit.

EPO can be used to counter or even reverse this trend and thus result in better performances than what would have been possible with the hard training alone.

It's well known that better training helps people get in good shape and leaner.

Eating a terrible diet at McDonald's for several months can be used to counter or even reverse this trend and thus result in better performances.

an expert scientific study wrote:

It's well known that better training helps people get in good shape and leaner.

Eating a terrible diet at McDonald's for several months can be used to counter or even reverse this trend and thus result in better performances.

Well done! Now all you need to do is show how fat riders perform better than lean ones on mountain stages in the TdF and you'll almost have made a point.

I wish you every success.

"But, of course, I hope that the percentage of aggressive idiots in your Society can be very much lower than what appears in Letsrun."

classic quote right there

Well done again, Renato. Every time these fools try and accuse you of some garbage, come back and hit them in the nuts with FACTS!!

Thank you for your patience, and please keep posting about the TRUTH about Kenyan athletes.

I think many people will skip over the statement you made about American society. Its this negativity and obsession with doping, that keeps the US from having an artificial ceiling on how well people can race NATURALLY. As you said, the Kenyans don't have this silly concept and so they run fearlessly.

Your thinking is fundamentally flawed based on larger data sets rather than your favourite decade only, the 80s. I would bet that if you took 100 RANDOM high school kids (because I don't presume you think high school kids are doping) from each country in the world and made them ran a marathon, Kenyan and Ethiopia would collectively dominate the top positions in the world and that is just a fact. I don't even think Ireland would be in top 10. Countries like Morocco, Japan, Russia, USA and several others would do better. For every Irish kid that can deposit a fast time, there are probably 10 Kenyans or Ethiopians who can equalize or do better! If you wish to disagree, post recorded international races and results for Ireland, Kenya, and Ethiopia since 1960s to present and let Letsrun members see if there is any truth in the trends you speak about.

The point I've been making is that the Irish, and Americans, and English runnners are every bit as talented as your Afircans but the Kenyans and Epo-thians pulled away from the world when, and only when, they started using epo...

Runners like Shorter, Liquori, Wottle, Coghlan, Treacy, Coe, Ovett were every bit as talentd as the Africans. Some want to believe the Rift Valley/Tribe thing. I don'. I instead believe the Rift Valley/EPO story...(And to be honest with you, these Africans absolutely stink in every sport except long distance running)

If you took the Epo-thians off drugs, you would argue that they would still have better runners than Ireland...Well with 91 million people they better hope so as Ireland only has 4 million....

In conclusion, the only reason that Epo-thians produce more world class runners than the phenomenal Irish, is because their Beckeles are doped and ---they got a lot of them dopesters..... My mission is to tell you how druggies and their apologists have ruined a once great sport.

The point I've been making is that the Irish, and Americans, and English runnners are every bit as talented as your Afircans but the Kenyans and Epo-thians pulled away from the world when, and only when, they started using epo...

Runners like Shorter, Liquori, Wottle, Coghlan, Treacy, Coe, Ovett were every bit as talentd as the Africans. Some want to believe the Rift Valley/Tribe thing. I don'. I instead believe the Rift Valley/EPO story...(And to be honest with you, these Africans absolutely stink in every sport except long distance running)

If you took the Epo-thians off drugs, you would argue that they would still have better runners than Ireland...Well with 91 million people they better hope so as Ireland only has 4 million....

In conclusion, the only reason that Epo-thians produce more world class runners than the phenomenal Irish, is because their Beckeles are doped and ---they got a lot of them dopesters..... My mission is to tell you how druggies and their apologists have ruined a once great sport.

Yeah, you've gotten your troll across. We get it, great stuff, spot on old chap, 8/10, cheerio! Now STFU. Are you 8 years old? Are you really so immature that you get your kicks by being annoying? Going to chase Mary Lou around the playground with your boogers tomorrow?

wq40r89asdjh;kla wrote:

the Kenyans and Ethiopians pulled away from the world when, and only when, they started ...

Competing

The advantages the Africans have are living in a suitable climate, having a pedestrian way of life, a simple natural diet of complex carbohydrates, a lack of modern distractions, the motivation to do well and get out of poverty, all of which are almost absent in the U.S. and other modern societies.

I would like to post a few things.

First, I do believe that due to lifestyle and the altitude in which many Africans live that they have an advantage over much of the world. At the same time I do believe that we can all agree that people around the world are using drugs. For the East Africans to be dominant over others using drugs is what brings question to my mind.

Secondly, I have said this on these boards for a long time but EPO and things of that nature are going to help you but transfusions are a huge benefit and basically undetectable. This is the number one way in which people are getting performance boosts.

Thirdly, East Africa is going to be a much easier place to dope than many other countries. Their testing procedures are not nearly as strong and it is much easier for someone to "not be able to be found."

Fourthly, If you are someone who is from Africa and you are depending on race winning to support yourself and many times the rest of your family I believe you are much more likely to dope and take risks than someone who is on a contract with a company in which they know they are bringing in money.

Fifthly, Renata I respect you as a coach. Obviously you have coached some great athletes. Lets look at cycling. A sport that in its basis is very similar. Why is it that every top level rider has admitted to doping. Based on your theory there is no need for this. We all agree that Lance was doped to the gills. How does he go from being a midlevel ride to the most dominant force cycling has ever seen. It is doping plain and simple. You can say that the top level guys are not gaining as much but lets say you ar a 2:06 guy and you only get a minute improvement from EPO. You also get another 30 seconds from training. All of a sudden you went from a very good runner to the absolutely best runner. Yes there are clean athletes out there but to try to claim that all of East Africa is clean is hogwash. I might also add. Don't you think Lance's coach and supporters never ever saw him dope even though they were around him 24/7. Exactly.