Think you're a big shot with your engineering degree? Look at this Chipolte worker!

If someone feels like they are above service workers, they have a problem. I probably wouldn't work at Chipotle because I don't feel like I'd fit into the culture and my espanol is de nadda despues quatro anos de no practico. I'll be working at a higher-end, gourmet restaurant.

I think if you have the capability to take that Assistant Director position in a corporate environment, you should do it, but it's great to work in the service industry because it keeps you humble and it's also fun to talk with so many people.

kartelite wrote:

And by the way, I know literally dozens upon dozens of people in those fields personally (for law and accounting, often on a professional basis) who are not American. A very close relative of mine teaches LLM courses that are geared to foreigners who intend to practice law in the US.

Most of Harvard's LLM grads end up practicing in the US:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/degrees/gradprogram/llm/degree-overview/index.html

I could probably throw out the names of a dozen accountants I know who are foreign nationals in the next 60 seconds.

I won't even begin to touch finance...

Those people all live within the United States, though, which means they don't put nearly as much wage pressure on American citizens as, say, an actual Indian law firm would (hypothetically).

bguyMilleniumJ_2012 wrote: He worked as an imagineer at Disney, and was going through a bad cold...he had a moment of inspiration one night, and voila, Breathe-Right.

that sounds like a dream job to work on roller coasters and animatronics. stress-free i would imagine and no state income tax.

kartelite wrote:

What on earth are you talking about? Do you have ANY IDEA how many foreign lawyers, doctors, accountants there are in the US?

1) It is a heck of a lot easier to outsource R&D and engineering than it is to outsource law, medicine, and accounting.

Change is coming to those other professions, but it is nowhere near as advanced as science and engineering.

2) Here's the wikipedia stats on foreign-born scientists and engineers in the US.

Go ahead and tell me that law, medicine, and accouting are anywhere near as globalized...

kartelite wrote:

I could probably throw out the names of a dozen accountants I know who are foreign nationals in the next 60 seconds.

I won't even begin to touch finance...

Ahh... anecdotal evidence.

So easy to find and yet it really doesn't count for much...

Original Message

Author: bguyMilleniumJ2012

Subject: RE: Think you're a big shot with your engineering degree? Look at this Chipolte worker!

Message:

you're correct in that the article doesnt mention how long she was a grunt, but everything past grunt stage took less than a uear

the article says she worked hey way up through the managerial ranks in a year. The backarticle to the story:

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/01/31/you-could-make-up-to-99k-a-year-at-chipotle/

“From January to December of last year, I went through service manager, apprentice, general manager, and restaurateur,” she said.

1. This is the Chipotle down the street from me... crazy.

2. Whoever wrote this article did not do his or her homework. Time ran a piece on Steve Ells last summer in which he said he's successful because he DOESN'T exemplify the the "13 traits."

3. There is no number three.

4. I need a life.

kartelite--

AFAIK there are NO LLM courses geared to the practice of law in the USA.

State bars require an LLB or JD from an ABA-accredited school (or in some states like NY its equivalent) for admission, and practice before federal agencies, tribunals, and courts requires state admission first. LLM's don't count, because they don't ground candidates for admission in the essential basics of US law, and are therefore neither ABA accredited nor the equivalent thereof--for example, a foreign student can do an LLM specializing in tax law and know little to nothing about the criminal code of any particular state.

There are limited provisions for foreign legal experts, but an American LLM is not a qualification for that specialty.

Any institution that is marketing LLM degrees to foreigners wishing to practice law in the USA is selling them a bill of goods.

I should also mention that many LLM's are done in which the focus is the sociology of law--i.e. disparate impacts on different populations, etc.--which in no way meaningfully prepares a student for the practice of law in any jurisdiction in the USA.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

kartelite--

AFAIK there are NO LLM courses geared to the practice of law in the USA.

State bars require an LLB or JD from an ABA-accredited school (or in some states like NY its equivalent) for admission, and practice before federal agencies, tribunals, and courts requires state admission first.

Not true - in fact, I know a guy in my hometown who "studied for the bar," i.e. he never had any sort of legal training but passed the state bar and has been a practicing attorney for over 30 years. I know lawyers in top NY firms with only a degree and an LLM.

There seems to be a patent disregard for facts here - 4runner asserted that non-Americans cannot work as lawyers/accountants in the US, which is completely untrue. My ex-girlfriend's dad is not only a practicing CPA but a professor of accounting at a large university, and he's not American.

kartelite wrote:

I know lawyers in top NY firms with only a degree and an LLM.

Apologies, meant to write "foreign degree."

kartelite--

I know exactly what I'm talking about. I am licensed in NYS and was admitted to the App. Div., 3rd Dept.

The rules for bar exam eligibility can be found here:

http://www.nybarexam.org/Eligible/Eligibility.htm

If you want specific information on ABA accreditation, link to Rule 520.3

I was admitted 13 years ago, and began my application 2 years prior to that. The rules at that time were essentially the same, if not identical.

Since this attorney you know has been practicing for over 30 years, I can only conclude that the rules were different back in the late 1970's. In fact, I KNOW they were different, but that is ancient history, and access throgh those old pathways hasn't been available for decades.

And, BTW, NYS is essentially the only state (maybe CA still, but I don't think so), that actually gives foreign applicants the opportunity to demonstrate ABA equivalency.

To that end, a LLM from an appropriate law school can help--see Rule 520.6

The attorney ranks in the USA are most certainly not filled with foreigners who lack an ABA-equivalent legal education--and to the extent that there are any, they are getting long in the tooth.

Also, if you want more information on the NYS licensing of foreign legal consultants to which I alluded in my earlier post, you can consult Rule 521.1

Again, an american LLM is not an acceptable qualification for that specialty.

kartelite wrote:

There seems to be a patent disregard for facts here - 4runner asserted that non-Americans cannot work as lawyers/accountants in the US, which is completely untrue. My ex-girlfriend's dad is not only a practicing CPA but a professor of accounting at a large university, and he's not American.

Let's be unambiguous about this, shall we?

Unless he's a hood, your ex-girfriend's dad is licensed in the state where he is a practicing accountant.

All MD's who are legally practicing medicine in America are licensed to practice medicine in their state.

All lawyers who are legally practicing law in America are licensed to practice law in their state.

These are classic restraints on trade. US CPA's, lawyers, and MD's are not competing with a global talent pool. Heck-- California CPA's, lawyers, and (to some extent) MD's aren't even competing with Nevada CPA's, lawyers, and MD's.

Contrast this with the sciences and engineering where an undergraduate degree from anywhere in the world is all that is necessary to practice most types of science and engineering. All that really mattters is talent. The sciences and engineering are the first globally competitive profession.

As an aside-- yes, I know that there are such things as professional engineers in fields like civil and fire protection engineering. However, they are a small subset of the total engineer population. Moreover, I suspect that if you look at, e.g., the difference in salaries between civil engineers who are a PE and civil engineers with similar experience who aren't, you'll find that those with a PE degree are paid more. Once again-- a restraint in trade keeping an artificial scarcity and driving up prices.

4runner--

Good post, except the practice of "professional engineering" requires licensure, and includes examination of advanced substantive topics plus ethics/mgmt, and some rudimentary knowledge of law and regulation.

Of course, many unlicensed engineers work under the "direction" of a PE.

Although the PE is not the be-all and end-all, IMO it does legitimately (if only de minimis) protect public health and safety when applied to disciplines like structural, and is thus more than just an arbitrary "restraint of trade".

And you are correct about the relative "globality" of engineering. In certain engineering disciplines, it has been a world market for a very long time.

the US is a free country with the fewest amount of rules and barriers to riches for engineers. you don't need a PE, or even a HS diploma to be an engineer or scientist in the US. henry ford, steve jobs, etc.

lol

we won wrote:

the US is a free country with the fewest amount of rules and barriers to riches for engineers. you don't need a PE, or even a HS diploma to be an engineer or scientist in the US. henry ford, steve jobs, etc.

Steve Jobs was an engineer?

4runner wrote:

Unless he's a hood, your ex-girfriend's dad is licensed in the state where he is a practicing accountant.

These are classic restraints on trade. US CPA's, lawyers, and MD's are not competing with a global talent pool. Heck-- California CPA's, lawyers, and (to some extent) MD's aren't even competing with Nevada CPA's, lawyers, and MD's.

Contrast this with the sciences and engineering where an undergraduate degree from anywhere in the world is all that is necessary to practice most types of science and engineering. All that really mattters is talent. The sciences and engineering are the first globally competitive profession.

You're defending a completely different statement than you asserted.

In case you forgot, this was your statement:

"You want to hire an accountant, you have to hire an American."

That is totally not true. The group I work in has 5 or 6 CPAs, I know for a fact that two of them are foreigners (different continents).

The lawyer I also work most closely with is a member of the New York bar, has an LLM and a foreign law degree. Obviously I'm not going to post a link to his or my coworkers' profiles, but it's really not that freaking hard to find examples anywhere you look.

Are you unable to accept that your below statement is wrong?

"You want to hire an accountant, you have to hire an American."

kartelite wrote:

Are you unable to accept that your below statement is wrong?

"You want to hire an accountant, you have to hire an American."

Wrong?

OK.

Change it to "You want to hire an accountant, you have to hire an American-licensed accountant."

Does that make you feel better?