Sprintgeezer: Sprint training advice

Lydiard is God wrote:

Karma Police wrote:

My 14yo kid who is an 800 runner is sub-12, and there's no way he'd beat Farah over 100m.

We seem to share the same opinions regarding sprint training for distance runners.

Out of interest, if you don't mind, what was/is his 14yo PB at 800, or longer, if he runs it, off that sort of speed?

He won't run longer.

Ran 2.03 a month after his 14th birthday. Trains on lower mileage with sprint training once a week. Trying to get to 2.00 or possibly under at about age 14&1/2. Not an early developer, maybe marginally ahead of average.

Actually he might run a 1500 or two later this year.

Nice. Resorting to name calling. Mature.

Sure, I believe everything I'm told.

Did you hear they took the word gullible out of the dictionary?

Karma Police wrote:

Nice. Resorting to name calling. Mature.

Sure, I believe everything I'm told.

Did you hear they took the word gullible out of the dictionary?

Sprint Geezer et al are right, you are wrong.

The proof is right there in front of you, as clear as day. Mo ran an all-out 100-meter dash and finished in 12.97 seconds.

If you need more, he once ran an all-out flying 100 with Galen Rupp, and ran 11.3, which matches up with a ~13 100 from blocks.

If you don't understand why someone could run an 11 second flying 100 (or finish a race in 26 seconds for 200), and not break 13 from a standing start, you don't understand a very basic physical concept in track and field. You're denying a really obvious truth.

living zombie wrote:

Karma Police wrote:

Nice. Resorting to name calling. Mature.

Sure, I believe everything I'm told.

Did you hear they took the word gullible out of the dictionary?

Sprint Geezer et al are right, you are wrong.

The proof is right there in front of you, as clear as day. Mo ran an all-out 100-meter dash and finished in 12.97 seconds.

If you need more, he once ran an all-out flying 100 with Galen Rupp, and ran 11.3, which matches up with a ~13 100 from blocks.

If you don't understand why someone could run an 11 second flying 100 (or finish a race in 26 seconds for 200), and not break 13 from a standing start, you don't understand a very basic physical concept in track and field. You're denying a really obvious truth.

Here are the flaws in what you've said.

Firstly you've said Farah once ran a flying 11.3 for a 100. Next you said he can close a RACE in 26.

Do you get it yet? You're saying Farah can close the last 200 of a race faster - yes, faster - than he can run fresh over 100. You might want to have a think about that.

Next you're saying going from a standing start adds 2 seconds to someone's flying 100 time. Wrong. Go and find that one out too.

Next - you're assuming Farah can hold his max speed for 400 - wrong again, no one can, not even him.

What do you think Farah would run out of blocks for 200?

If:

- he closes races in 26

- he can't run any faster fresh

- the standing start adds 2 seconds on to his sprint time,

then you're saying he would run 28.0 for 200 fresh.

That's the extrapolation of what you've said, and you can now see how absurd it is.

I'm not the person you're debating, but I'll throw my hat in the ring.

You don't seem to understand there's a massive difference between how fast you can build up speed with a running start versus from blocks.

When you have a running start you can accelerate faster, quicker than from blocks since you're already moving. Blocks require power to push out and get up to speed. That's why Johnson's final 100 in his 19.32 was a 9.1. That's why 4x1 splits are way faster than open. Because the runners have a running start.

Farah can't break 13 in a 100 (or just barely) because he doesn't have the power to accelerate fast enough from the blocks.

I don't understand how there's even a debate since he has already raced a 100.

He won't run longer.

Ran 2.03 a month after his 14th birthday. Trains on lower mileage with sprint training once a week. Trying to get to 2.00 or possibly under at about age 14&1/2. Not an early developer, maybe marginally ahead of average.

Actually he might run a 1500 or two later this year.[/quote]

Nice. How much continuous running does he do?

My kid is not as fast-12.52. At 15 he did 1:58 and 4:04(15) with that amount of speed. I'd say he is also a bit ahead of the curve developmentally, but didn't really grow until 13. He was doing around 40km a week including a traditional long run and other shorter faster runs. He likes the sprint training. I believe it is crucial to develop this early and keep at it.

Lydiard is God wrote:

He won't run longer.

Ran 2.03 a month after his 14th birthday. Trains on lower mileage with sprint training once a week. Trying to get to 2.00 or possibly under at about age 14&1/2. Not an early developer, maybe marginally ahead of average.

Actually he might run a 1500 or two later this year.

Nice. How much continuous running does he do?

My kid is not as fast-12.52. At 15 he did 1:58 and 4:04(15) with that amount of speed. I'd say he is also a bit ahead of the curve developmentally, but didn't really grow until 13. He was doing around 40km a week including a traditional long run and other shorter faster runs. He likes the sprint training. I believe it is crucial to develop this early and keep at it.[/quote]

Yeah those are good 800 times off that speed.

I'd say mine does 20-30km a week, of which I'd call 70% quality work (the rest WU etc). Actually some weeks less, even in base.

He does a bit of continuous running on Sundays after a break to get the background fitness up, but once he can handle this (say after a month or so), he doesn't do any. Usually a short progressive run of 15-20 mins on a Wed between distance training (Tues) and sprints (Thurs), if you count that. No tempos. I try to get maximum benefit out of minimum work, and tempos don't give you enough bang for your buck.

For an 800 specialist I really only see the longer run as training to train. That is, you probably can't do the 25-30 mins of intense fartlek/intervals you need unless you can run at a solid pace for longer than that, say 40 mins, 45 max. I don't think a younger 800 runner needs to run any longer, especially a sprinter type, and I prefer progression runs than straight long steady ones.

Having said that, this is what works with MY kid. It might not work with everyone. I don't follow what anyone else does just for the sake of it, I only get him to do what makes sense to me. And I don't assume any two people should be trained the same. He plays a team sport too this time of year (till August), so that affects what he can do.

So by your logic Farah is a 28 second 200 runner, right?

Obviously you gain ground with a running start compared to a standing start, it's just not a 2 second difference.

Flo'da boy wrote:

Reviving this old thread once again as I will be running my first actual 200m race tomorrow. There's an open event in Atlanta where I'm living temporarily and maybe if they do them periodically I can have something to really train for. I have little hope of not embarrassing myself but if I'm lucky the blocks won't slide out under me haha

How'd it go?!

Karma Police wrote:

So by your logic Farah is a 28 second 200 runner, right?

Obviously you gain ground with a running start compared to a standing start, it's just not a 2 second difference.

Nope. He would do better in the 200 vs the 100 since it's closer to the events he trains for. I don't know where you're getting 28 from. Since the 200 is longer, he has more time to get up to speed and would run a faster second 100 than his 100 open. Same reason why Johnson ran a 9.1 last 100 in his 200 pr.

It is about a 2 second difference for Farah. We know what he can run for a 100 and his coach has said he ran a 11.3 running 100.

The difference between a running 100 and blocks is going to be different depending on the speed of the athlete. The difference for someone like Bolt or Powell is ~.8-1 of a second. We know this from 4x1 splits. It would be greater for Farah since he's much slower.

Think of it this way. A 3:42 1500 is equivalent to a 4:00 mile. So an 18 second difference. That difference increases as the athlete gets slower. A 4:30 1500 isn't equal to a 4:48 mile.

Taqueria Cancun veggie burrito wrote:

Flo'da boy wrote:

Reviving this old thread once again as I will be running my first actual 200m race tomorrow. There's an open event in Atlanta where I'm living temporarily and maybe if they do them periodically I can have something to really train for. I have little hope of not embarrassing myself but if I'm lucky the blocks won't slide out under me haha

How'd it go?!

It was, for the most part, a disaster. But a fun one!

I got there early and entered the high jump because I always thought it looked fun, and as a way to get loose. Well I can honestly say the high jump is fun as hell, even if you're terrible! I didn't take it past the opening height 4'2. I got the height but I just had no control and smacked the bar everytime. I'd love to try again.

The schedule was different than listed. I had planned on running a 200m and an 800m but when I got there it was a 100m and a 400m. The 100m went about as well as I should have expected given my hamstrings were sore and I stupidly decided to use blocks (which I stumbled out of). 14.04. The 400m was just embarrassing and I'd rather not think about it haha.

Anyway, this summer meet seems to have been the last even of a summer series of events with four meets. I may very well still be living in the area next time around so I have some goals for then:

Sub 13 100m

Sub 60 400m

5'5 high jump

I have q year to train and would love any advice on workouts or scheduling. I have limited access to tracks, but access to trails and football fields,s and I have some homemade hurdles

Flo'da

WOW. Okay, I didn't read TAA's answers and he probably already destroyed your arguments, but anyways.

1. First of all, 26 for 200 is not faster than 11.3 for 100. Not even close. And the last 200 of a slow race is pretty close to a flying 200.

2. Second of all, a flying 100 is about 1.5 seconds faster, probably a little less for a good starter and a little more for a distance runner (especially one with untrained reaction time). I implied it's about 1.7 for Farah, which I stand by. Bolt held a top speed of about .82/.83 per 10m so for him running an 8.3 flying 100 would be about 1.3 seconds difference, and he is obviously much better out of blocks so it makes sense.

3. No, you're still not getting the flying/standing start difference. Mo doesn't hold top speed for 400. I would guess if he could run 50.0 from blocks his splits would be something like 13.4, 11.9, 12.2, 12.5 (normal for how you run the 400). Though I'm not sure he could run 50.0 from blocks, but it is entirely possible to do so without being able to run 12.5 for 100.

As for your question, I would guess he could run about 25.0 for 200 from blocks. And yes, that means he could theoretically close a very slow race faster than 25.0, please, just once, understand the difference between standing and flying start.

PS, if there's any confusion, when I said "he could close a race in 26" I didn't mean that's his max speed, I just meant it could and probably has happened lots of times.

Like TAA said this isn't "by my logic," this is based on two different real-life results that were actually run.

Finally watched the video of Mo running the 100m. Hadn't realized the Brownlee brothers were in the race. Flo'da - your 14.04 beat 'em both!

Wow, I feel bad for the Brownlees! Haha

Just did some jogging and tempo 100s (yds) today. My shins felt raw and achy so I didn't push it or do any hurdle jumps. Still need to see if I can get access to a high school track or something

Flo'da boy wrote:

Wow, I feel bad for the Brownlees! Haha

Just did some jogging and tempo 100s (yds) today. My shins felt raw and achy so I didn't push it or do any hurdle jumps. Still need to see if I can get access to a high school track or something

This all gives me even more appreciation for the work SprintGeezer was putting in to break 12 FAT from blocks a few years after turning 45. Really do hope he decides to come back to the boards some day.

Meanwhile, good luck with your season, Flo'da!

+1 for SG to return.

Meantime, karma police is a complete idiot, and Flo'da is a complete hero. HJ! Huge stones going into it cold. 4'2" cold with no practice is worth 5' in a week. What did you do, straddle, flop, or scissors?

And don't you know, if you put up a time you don't like in the 100, you blame it on conditions. I'm sure it was raining, cold, with a BRUTAL headwind. And a lousy starter who held everybody too long. But you know, that was your only race, you aren't race sharp--take .25 off that right now just because you aren't used to racing.

Proud Supporter wrote:

+1 for SG to return.

Meantime, karma police is a complete idiot, and Flo'da is a complete hero. HJ! Huge stones going into it cold. 4'2" cold with no practice is worth 5' in a week. What did you do, straddle, flop, or scissors?

And don't you know, if you put up a time you don't like in the 100, you blame it on conditions. I'm sure it was raining, cold, with a BRUTAL headwind. And a lousy starter who held everybody too long. But you know, that was your only race, you aren't race sharp--take .25 off that right now just because you aren't used to racing.

Hahaha thank you, sir! Believe I have a list of extenuating circumstances sloshing around in my brain but thought better than to spew them out here

I gave the flop a try and it was more floppish than was probably intended. My first jump was actually pretty good and I think I just nudged the bar with a limb, but my next two weren't much better than closing my eyes and belly-flopping at the mat

And of course +2 for the return of Sprintgeezer, coach d, if you're out there, convince him to come back!

I'm still around occasionally, probably more for summer now that NCAA season is over (I finally get a chance to race!). I can tell you that my buddy SG is not dead, but also that he has been and still is true to his word of never coming back here. He became totally fed up with the morons who infest this board and he left permanently, as have most real coaches who used to post on here.

When SG was here, I didn't really post any of my own training. There were two reasons for that:

(1) I thought SG did a good job of talking about basic sprint training, and I didn't want to interfere;

(2) I think if I posted my own actual training, the geezer might have wanted to throw up. I am Jamaica-focused, which means fewer weights and a lot more hard training on grass and track, including sleds, hills, and plyos.

My view will be somewhere below, when I have time to write it.