Because of injury (achilles?), Fernandez was limited by his coach to no faster than 30 second 200s in his training when he ran 4/8:34. An incredible talent.
Because of injury (achilles?), Fernandez was limited by his coach to no faster than 30 second 200s in his training when he ran 4/8:34. An incredible talent.
Fruit basket wrote:
Yeah, so according to malmo, we really need to revise the conversion charts. A banked 200m indoor track is marginally faster than a flat 200m track, as well as faster than a 400m outdoor track. So, is a 200m indoor track the same as a 400m outdoor track? Or is it too faster than a 400m outdoor track?
Revise conversion charts? What conversion charts?
call me big poppa wrote:
Now THAT is nonsense.
According to your logic, Webb would have ran FASTER than his 3:53.3 HSR at the Prefontaine Meet if it had been held at the 2009 Big 12 Indoor Championships location??!!
What would he have run as the HSR that day? 3:51? Would he had dipped under 3:50?
Did I say that? I don't say what German or Alan WOULD have run anywhere, only what they actually ran, and that hyperfast banked tracks in perfect conditions (wind and temp) are faster than outdoor tracks (at least at those speeds).
call me big poppa wrote:
Haha. I almost fell for your sarcasm. Ha- good one man.
Sarcasm? On the contrary, it was simple logic. Unfortunately, that concept seems to have gracefully eluded you.
Hey Malmo, then how come the 1500/mile indoor records are each around five seconds slower than their outdoors counterparts? Maybe El G should've found a faster track..?
As the creator of this thread I think it is safe for me to say that Malmo is wrong. Period.
Where's the Big 12 video, people??
Hold your Horses, steepler wrote:
Hey Malmo, then how come the 1500/mile indoor records are each around five seconds slower than their outdoors counterparts? Maybe El G should've found a faster track..?
First and formost indoors is a sideshow, it is not the primary season for running. There are few indoor events and not everyone runs them, and those that do, it is not their peak season. What you should be amazed by, if you would open your eyes, is that El Guerrouj has run faster on an indoor track, a season that he rarely runs and have never pointed to, than he has on outdoor tracks in Zurich, Paris, Eugene, and Reiti. Just as amazing, is that he has run almost as fast on an indoor track as he has in Rome, Brussels and London!
Secondly, at 55s the advantages of perfect temps and no wind start to get trumped by the increasing disadvantages of negotiating the turns at higher speeds. At 59s pace, the perfect temps, no wind and the ability to hug the rail to run shorter than the same distance on a outdoor track, it becomes an advantage.
I don't disagree with you at all on those points, and didn't know that byers had lost a race and still won the national championship (I was five at the time and wiki not forthcoming), thanks for saying what happened, but by your logic in this post, german would likely have run considerably faster outdoors when he was peaking, and with competition, of course, than this 3:55 indoors, with no comp, prior to any considerable speedwork and in a season limited by injury after ncaa xc. On the world level, there's no comparison between him and ryun, but had German been healthy for a full outdoor campaign at 18, he might have run as fast as Ryun did at 19 (3:51.1/8:25). He was not.
He doesn't have an automatic qualifier in the mile. will he go to a last chance to get it?
no...he'll just run the 3K and win.
STUPID ADS wrote:
no one wrote:in his 3:58 in HS his team mate did some rabbit duties for the first 2 laps ...
no no no no no .... Ryun led from the start. They ran a staggered start and broke for the pole coming off the first turn ... Ryun in the lead and never behind. Not sure how this got started but it is categorically false. I had heard that for some time but ....glaring truth verified by simply watching the video.
Ryun in an interview said that his teammate helped him by being right behind him in the beginning because it helped him keep a solid pace. or something.
I'm wrong and right. Peterson pushed Ryun for the first 880.
On page 111 of the Jim Ryn story, "When they posted Jim's national record on the board at East High, they wrote under it, "Thanks, Mike Petterson."
jjjjjjjj wrote:
...and in a season limited by injury...
jjjjjjjj wrote:
...had German been healthy for a full outdoor campaign...
It really never does get old, huh? I'm sorry folks, but you need to stop falling back upon that excuse over and OVER again! For better or worse, "a season limited by injury" is German's default state-of-being. If it wasn't, perhaps then you would have a compelling argument for how great his performances MIGHT be.
Are you ALL retarded? Find footage of the actual race, then pass judgment on that. Analyze the apparent effort. That factors largely into all your ventolin-like assessments and predictions...
Indolents
Never before in several years of posting here have I lowered myself to calling someone names, but here I'm tempted. Fernandez's accomplishments, while great, are so far outside of what Ryun accomplished in high school that I scarcely know what to say. Making the Olympic team at 1500 as a high school junior, beating the reigning Olympic gold and silver medalists at 1500 in a mile race in which he broke the American record, while a high school runner, and then setting the world record as a college freshman--these are things GF only dreams of.
007run wrote:
While I think Jim Ryun and Alan Webb are great, I do think German is one the greatest of all time in HS if not arguably the greatest. Yes, Jim Ryun was world class in high school but he grew up in a different era and I think its a little unfair to give it so much weight. What I do know is this: German Fernandez ran a 4:00 1600 and then a 8:34 3200 two hours later at the CA state meet. Keep in mind that German was I believe 17 at time, correct if I'm wrong but I know he was still pretty young. As great as Jim and Alan were in HS, I don't think either of them could what German did at that state meet with only two hours of rest. Just something to think about.
long dong silver wrote:
....
Time
Ryun: 3:55.3
Fernandez: 3:55.02
....
World Record at the time
Ryun: 3:53.6
Fernandez: 3:43.13
.....
World Record at the time (in the runner's heads, this is a huge limiting factor): now it's even again.
....
If A WORLD RECORD is a huge limiting factor, no argument there.
but can't you explain how 2 = 12?
I think Ryan would have more than a slight advantage here.
it may be argued than running within 2 secs off of the world record may be a little more challenging now than in the past but still fair is fair and if you want to compare apples with apples then it is what it is.
And 2 secs slower than the current WR is much better than 12 secs.
in an argument about talent, injuries and lack of training are pretty relevant. he put up big numbers on little training.
let's not overstate the question of competition at the time. if competition was relatively weak, then that doesn't make the performance any better. if byers took an american title in the interregnum between ryun and scott, it doesn't have the same value as one during their eras. if ryun destroyed low to mid 3:50s milers, that doesn't mean that in this era he would have destroyed mid 3:40s milers. in his case, however, when you ignore the competition and consider instead the tracks, the frontrunning, and the kicks, then you might have a case for that.
jjjjjjjj wrote:
he put up big numbers on little training.
That's probably why he got injured.
Racing follows the training. When you try racing (or even training) outside of your training ability, that's when injuries happen. Or, you do something stupid like play a pickup game of soccer or basketball.
The easiest way to close this argument is for GF to win gold in London or Rio, something that not even Ryun could do. Sorry, but all of the junior or HS records don't mean anything compared to an Olympic gold medal. A world record would be the second most desirable accomplishment in this sport. And by that token, Ryun wins this argument.
PS. It sucks that the US indoor championships aren't held after the NCAA's, like the outdoor season is. I would have liked to see some better competition in that race.
malmo wrote:
Hold your Horses, steepler wrote:Hey Malmo, then how come the 1500/mile indoor records are each around five seconds slower than their outdoors counterparts? Maybe El G should've found a faster track..?
First and formost indoors is a sideshow, it is not the primary season for running. There are few indoor events and not everyone runs them, and those that do, it is not their peak season. What you should be amazed by, if you would open your eyes, is that El Guerrouj has run faster on an indoor track, a season that he rarely runs and have never pointed to, than he has on outdoor tracks in Zurich, Paris, Eugene, and Reiti. Just as amazing, is that he has run almost as fast on an indoor track as he has in Rome, Brussels and London!
Secondly, at 55s the advantages of perfect temps and no wind start to get trumped by the increasing disadvantages of negotiating the turns at higher speeds. At 59s pace, the perfect temps, no wind and the ability to hug the rail to run shorter than the same distance on a outdoor track, it becomes an advantage.
Hey Malmo; Get a life.... hahha ....Now we all have a firm grasp on the obvious (Sherlock Holmes). Except you've seemed to confused me a bit when you expelled the indoor season from being a legit stage for competitive running. You are a fool my Boy...
... For you other insecure cruds out their arguing over the premise of talent and who has the most... pick at your teeth with this one.
Tal-ent: is the WHOLE package... not only about the demographics, or about the what ifs of a good runner... It is the 100% ability for the athlete to perform.
Talent is only really observable when the athlete has retired from His or Her career. It is the potential, but in all aspects including: injury prevention, training, race logic, genetics, ect.
God Bless him, GF... but whatever his injuries were from, (coaching, ignorance, leisure activities, ect...), the faults lie on him and contribute to his lack of talent.
If he overcomes them and evolves into the runner everyone wishes he will be... then I guess you can then say he is "the" most talented mid-distance American runner ever. But you know what the ol' timers say; Wish in one hand and s*** in the other and see which one fills first. ;)
oh and for all of you "GF" eccentrics on the boards...if you wish to reply to this post, you might want to give your left hand a break,.. time to switch, just reminding you.