Coach Jay Johnson: What happened to just running?

the reasons people are against running drills, plyos, etc. are ridiculous. Taking away from the running? I mean what evidence do you have that it takes focus off of running? The purpose of these drills is to help running performance. They are a supplement to running... The placebo effect, I at least can see where your coming from, but how can these drills be a placebo, its pretty silly to think some of these drills don't have a positive effect on performance.

It seems like people just have these closed minded thoughts on different subjects without having any experience or an unfortunate experience and it was the end all be all and now they are against it. Lots of these drills and plyos help running form, strengthen hip flexors and core, and help prevent injuries. I can't really believe people can think these drills arent at least somewhat helpful. I think drills, plyos, etc. are the most underrated things in running training and performance.

the way to get better at running is to run. very interesting.. how exactly do you get better at racing? thats what the athletes are interested in.

abc123 wrote:

the way to get better at running is to run. very interesting.. how exactly do you get better at racing? thats what the athletes are interested in.

Right, doing things like neuromuscular drills and core work and so on allow a runner to do higher volume, as well as a higher volume at intensity, without breaking down than they could without. That doesn't mean that athletes can't still cross the threshold and get injured, it just raises that threshold. It's what allows you to run more and get better at running. Be a worse athlete and runner if you want to, I doubt it would bother anyone else.

I don't think that anyone really disagrees, it's just that when you work 10 hours a day, running 2 hours is enough challenge. Yes there are 24 hours in a day, but for gosh sakes, one of those posted vids said the workout took 3 HOURS!?!?!?! I can run 23 miles in that time and I'm not fast. If given an extra hour in my day, I'd use it to sleep more. Points are taken and I will try to look like a dork and do a few of the warmup drills for 5 minutes before my morning run. Any have a drill thing routine that takes about 15 minutes? Which are the most important?

hardset nipples wrote:

abc123 wrote:

the way to get better at running is to run. very interesting.. how exactly do you get better at racing? thats what the athletes are interested in.

Right, doing things like neuromuscular drills and core work and so on allow a runner to do higher volume, as well as a higher volume at intensity, without breaking down than they could without. That doesn't mean that athletes can't still cross the threshold and get injured, it just raises that threshold. It's what allows you to run more and get better at running. Be a worse athlete and runner if you want to, I doubt it would bother anyone else.

Renee Metivier-Baillie and the rest of Johnson's crew don't work 10 hours a day, so of course they have more time to do this sort of thing. He's giving them all they can handle within their individual contexts. It is about tailoring it to the appropriate level for the athlete, whether a workaday runner or high school runner or college runner or pro runner. It's not supposed to be perceived as an all-or-nothing proposition. Read Johnson's comment above regarding his menu. If you coach yourself then you would have to do that for yourself.

hardset nipples wrote:

Right, doing things like neuromuscular drills and core work and so on allow a runner to do higher volume, as well as a higher volume at intensity, without breaking down than they could without. That doesn't mean that athletes can't still cross the threshold and get injured, it just raises that threshold. It's what allows you to run more and get better at running. Be a worse athlete and runner if you want to, I doubt it would bother anyone else.

BS

BSalarm wrote:

hardset nipples wrote:

Right, doing things like neuromuscular drills and core work and so on allow a runner to do higher volume, as well as a higher volume at intensity, without breaking down than they could without. That doesn't mean that athletes can't still cross the threshold and get injured, it just raises that threshold. It's what allows you to run more and get better at running. Be a worse athlete and runner if you want to, I doubt it would bother anyone else.

BS

BS

idiot alert. wrote:

BSalarm wrote:

BS

BS

abc123 wrote:

the way to get better at running is to run. very interesting.. how exactly do you get better at racing? thats what the athletes are interested in.

hardset nipples wrote:

Right, doing things like neuromuscular drills and core work and so on allow a runner to do higher volume, as well as a higher volume at intensity, without breaking down than they could without. That doesn't mean that athletes can't still cross the threshold and get injured, it just raises that threshold. It's what allows you to run more and get better at running. Be a worse athlete and runner if you want to, I doubt it would bother anyone else.

+1

Note: I didn't read this entire thread before I wrote the following (for a different forum) and my apologies if it's terribly redundant. Basically, I'm trying to make sure I understand why I assign what I assign, with the "Need to Do, not Nice to Do" as the guiding principle.

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Question: When coaching distance runners, what non-running activities do you think are vital for success?

General answer would be:

I want do to things that will allow the athlete to run more and run some of those miles at a high intensity. I have a Lydiard view that lots of running leads to fast racing and I think the 2010 cardinal 10k supports this - lots of people ran well who run a lot and who run hard; not known to be drillers per say.

I'm not as concerned with non-running things to improve power as much as I'm wanting to put as much work into the system to prevent injury as I can, without overwhelming the athlete psychologically or physically.

Vern Gambetta has talked about "The need to do" vs. "The nice to do" and to me that means that we need to make sure we're not doing 60 minutes of non-running work if 10/20/30 minutes would get us 80-90% of the stimulus as there is no doubt a point of diminishing returns with all training.

Have I have read the studies that show that Running Economy (RE) improves with plyometric training, while the VO2max between the experimental and control groups didn't differ? Yes. Do I understand that implies that the engines of the two groups were the same - the same! - but the plyo people (men) ran a 3k faster. Yes.

So why don't I care about non-running activites and RE? Wouldn't be stupid not to address that issue.

I didn't say I don't care about them, I said I'm not as concerned with them. I have a feeling the half marathon male (64 min) I work with accelerates move heavy things than most other athletes and I would say his 800m runner spouse (sub 2:04) has more plyometric contacts in a week and month than most of her contemporaries (though we don't do "high level" or "intense" plyometric contacts such as a depth jump into a 30" hurdle hop, much less 30" hurdle hops). But again, I care about non-running things as our insurance policy against injury more than I care about the improved RE issue. Which leads to a simple pedagogical fact...

the injury-insurance work leads to the RE work. You can't safely do one without the other.

Okay, that's the General answer; below are the Specific answers.

Specific Answer: Warm-Up

Before the athlete's run I want to see that they're ready to run and to me that means moving in all three planes of motion (sagital, frontal and transverse) before they take a step running. Thus, the Lunge Matrix (LM) comes in as the first thing they do when they get out of their car. I don't do this in the spirit of evaluation, yet I try to spy on them to see how they look. Wobbly isn't what we want, yet it's often what we get (when CNS is fatigued? maybe? probably? I don't know).

The next issue would be mobility, specifically hip mobility and this is where the "wall drills" from Myrtl come in.

(I probably need to start addressing ankle and foot mobility, or "foot intrinsics" and I will come up with something in the near future, experimening on myself and my less than ideal left foot/ankle).

What are the wall drills? Just leg swings and some hurdle trail leg work, stuff half America is doing before they run a race on the track. While I find it odd that you don't see all track athletes in the states doing hip mobility work - what event doesn't require sound movement and expression of force originating from the hip? - this is especially important for distance runners we're often "jammed up" in the hips, from driving or sitting or in the case of some hippies, from serious zazen.

Another hip mobility option is some light/simple hurdle mobility (HM) if you're at the track. Walk over every other is the easiest, yet a lateral walk-over is appropriate as well. You can do it anywhere by walking over imaginary hurdles, but you get more stares than when you do it over hurdles.

Okay, I'm going to stop here as this topic is dear to my heart and I'm curious what others do as part of the warm-up and if they do anything before the run begins. Once we've fleshed this out then we can move on to the next part of the practice session.

But before I finish, I want to point out that during my time as CU athlete and during my days as a JUCO coach static stretching with everyone in the circle was used to prepare for a run; I did it as an athlete and like most first year coaches I blindly assigned what I had done as an athlete, the thought being "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Kudos to all who've had the foresight to ask "why" before they blindly adopt every aspect of their last athletic experience when starting their coaching career, yet I'll be honest - I'm not a part of your club. While the science doesn't support this type of warm-up, I learned that the circle has a social benefit, especially for college students that don't roam the halls together and likely haven't seen each other since the last practice session. People need people and that, coupled with the deep symbolic function of the circle, is why the warm-up needs to be done in a group. While my college track coach used to say, "Ultimately and essentially we're all alone" I think it's quite right to wait until the workout to look at and deal with that running reality.

Thanks again to everyone for their time.

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Okay, there you go.

Also, and I'm embarrassed to ask, but "+1" seems to be a good thing, yet what is it? A point? Means you like the post or is it sarcastic? I thought bump was an alternative to a handshake for a long time, so yes, I'm that clueless. Thanks for the help

Interesting that the ad currently at the top of this thread shows Saints quarterback Drew Brees with one foot in a sling, one foot on the ground, chest passing what looks to be a medicine ball. The only thing not stupid about the ad is that he's wearing lunar trainers, a decent shoe in my humble opinion.

End of the rant and thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread - it's been interesting to read and I'll go back and re-read it. I was caffinated when I wrote this and hope it was readable, tough the bar for ghrammer and spilling on this bored is seat petty low. But the ghrammer problem just proves it's a bunch of crackers on this board.

+1 is good Jay, it means the person is agreeing with the posts they have quoted.

I'm doing a ton of strength work, stretching, calf/hip/glute flexibility/rolling, general PT and it's making me feel tons stronger even 2-3 weeks in. Have been able to nail 40+ weeks now several weeks in a row and feel stronger (slight nagging foot issue due to tilted pelvis and sore talus bone, but my chiro says I can run through), which is a miracle after dying in a 10'F marathon in ill-fitting Saucony Rides (my fault for not fitting them right, lesson learned) at Mile 23 back in February...(granted, that marathon was a loop course in the dead of winter, 27 laps around an office park).