My message to drug cheats (especially those from Africa)

"Thirdly, I believe many are interested about Junior results, not least the juniors themselves, as can be seen by the various comments about athletes "junior" achievements on these boards.

E.g. People waxing lyrical about how much faster Ngeny would have run if he hadn't had an accident at 22; citing that he was running 3:42 at 17! Canova says on here that he was 6 years older, meaning he was almost 28 when he won in Sydney, as opposed to 21; and 23 when he posted a relatively mediocre 3:42. That puts a completely different light on his career and potential. There aren't many athletes who continue to improve once they reach their late 20's."

I am saying it again and again: They started a completely innovative training in the autumn of 1995. Many runners improved by 15-20 sec. in the 5000 m over a single winter 1995-96 and destroyed Aouita's world record. Even Tergat, who ran 27:14-27:18 for 3 years, suddenly got to 26:27 within mere 2 years. It's the well-known "Wonder Winter", you know.

"and 23 when he posted a relatively mediocre 3:42."

In short, the Kenyans we saw after 1995 were as mediocre as those we saw before 1995. The only difference was EPO.

1. Nourradine Morceli ALG 1970 3'32"60

2. Peter Elliot GBR 1962 3'32"69

3. Gennaro Di Napoli ITA 1968 3'32"78

4. Wilfred Kirochi KEN 1969 3'32"90

5. Steve Cram GBR 1960 3'33"03

6. Jens Peter Herold DDR 1965 3'33"2

7. Herve Phileppeau FRA 1962 3'33"54

8. Joe Falcon USA 1966 3'33"6

9. Jose Luis Gonzales ESP 1957 3'33"87

10. Tony Morrell GBR 1962 3'34"1

1991

1. Nourradine Morceli ALG 1970 3'31"00

2. Simon Doyle AUS 1966 3'31"96

3. Fermin Cacho ESP 1969 3'32"03

4. Peter Elliot GBR 1962 3'32"94

5. Said Aouita MAR 1960 3'33"28

6. David Kibet KEN 1963 3'33"51

7. Wilfred Kirochi KEN 1969 3'33"6

8. Jim Spivey USA 1960 3'33"7

9. Gennaro Di Napoli ITA 1968 3'33"74

10. Matthew Yates GBR 1969 3'34"00

1992

1. Nourradine Morceli ALG 1970 3'28"82

2. David Kibet KEN 1963 3'32"13

3. William Kemei KEN 1969 3'32"41

4. Wilfred Kirochi KEN 1969 3'32"49

5. Fermin Cacho ESP 1969 3'32"69

6. Jens Peter Herold DDR 1965 3'32"77

7. Jim Spivey USA 1960 3'32"94

8. Joseph Chesire KEN 1957 3'33"12

9. Jonah Birir KEN 1971 3'33"36

10. Gennaro Di Napoli ITA 1968 3'33"80

1993

1. Nourradine Morceli ALG 1970 3'29"20

2. Fermin Cacho ESP 1969 3'32"01

3. Abdi Bile SOM 1964 3'32"83

4. Mohamed Suleiman QAT 1969 3'33"29

5. Simon Doyle AUS 1966 3'33"39

6. Johan Landsman SAF 1964 3'33"56

7. Jonah Birir KEN 1971 3'33"86

8. David Kibet KEN 1963 3'33"88

9. Jens Peter Herold DDR 1965 3'34"42

10. Atoi Boru KEN 1973 3'34"61

1994

1. Nourradine Morceli ALG 1970 3'30"61

2. Venuste Nyongabo BUR 1973 3'30"66

3. Azzeddine Sediki MAR 1970 3'32"71

4. Mohamed Suleiman QAT 1969 3'32"73

5. Hicham El Gerrouji MAR 1974 3'33"61

6. Abdi Bile SOM 1964 3'33"63

7. Atoi Boru KEN 1973 3'34"12

8. Gennaro Di Napoli ITA 1968 3'34"42

9. Moses Kiptanui KEN 1971 3'34"44

10. Benson Koech KEN 1974 3'34"72

1995

1. Nourradine Morceli ALG 1970 3'27"37

2. Venuste Nyongabo BUR 1973 3'30"78

3. Hicham El Gerrouji MAR 1974 3'31"16

4. William Kemei KEN 1969 3'31"40

5. Azzeddine Sediki MAR 1970 3'31"48

6. Steve Holman USA 1970 3'32"01

7. Eric Dubus FRA 1966 3'32"37

8. Gennaro Di Napoli ITA 1968 3'32"94

9. Mohamed Suleiman QAT 1969 3'33"37

10. William Tanui KEN 1964 3'33"69

1996

1. Hicham El Gerrouji MAR 1974 3'29"05

2. Nourradine Morceli ALG 1970 3'29"50

3. Venuste Nyongabo BUR 1973 3'30"09

4. Laban Rotich KEN 1969 3'31"06

5. William Tanui KEN 1964 3'31"20

6. Stephen Kipkorir KEN 1970 3'31"87

7. Elija Maru KEN 1976 3'32"07

8. Fermin Cacho ESP 1969 3'32"58

9. Moses Kigen KEN 3'32"84

10. Benson Koech KEN 1974 3'32"90

1997

1. Hicham El Gerrouji MAR 1974 3'28"91

2. Fermin Cacho ESP 1969 3'28"95

3. Venuste Nyongabo BUR 1973 3'29"18

4. Daniel Komen KEN 1976 3'29"46

5. Laban Rotich KEN 1969 3'30"13

6. Nourradine Morceli ALG 1970 3'30"23

7. John Kibowen KEN 1969 3'30"44

8. William Tanui KEN 1964 3'30"58

9. Steve Holman USA 1970 3'31"52

10. Robert Andersen DEN 1972 3'31"52

More idiots:

"Someone in the heart of a team that I can't name. Before going to the start of the Tour, the riders of certain teams, during their training camps, took EPO (which disappears from the urine within three days, even 12 hours when small doses are used) and took their hematocrits up to around 60. Then a doctor withdraws their blood, saving it in special containers, to lower their blood parameters into the accepted range (50) so that they pass without difficulty the medical controls before the Tour. Then, as the teams well know, during the race the vampires (2) can arrive any day but always between 7 and 8 in the morning. After that time, there is no more testing and the riders were able to reinject their own blood. They were racing the stage with an enormous advantage- their hemotrocrit in the 55 to 58 range during the race- then in the evening at the hotel, someone again withdraws their blood so that they sleep without risk (3) and, especially, they escape the possible tests the next morning"

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12650447&sid=0265cae821417c681ff4f4dd82611f5f

XC skiers are also retarded.

http://www.expressen.se/1.473447

http://www.expressen.se/1.311431

google translate...

This Czech Guy may or may not be one short of a six pack, but three notions here definitely seem suspect:

1) Kenyans getting a free pass concerning ethics when even Canova freely admits they flagrantly lie about their ages;

2) Collective outliers of extraordinary competitive times. Historically speaking, sooner or later these are often proven to be of super-natural origin (East Germans, US sprinters in the early 00s, Russian female middle distance runners last year);

3) Canova's notion that "these type of athletes" wouldn't benefit from EPO or CERA. I don't think I've actually ever come across a guiltier sounding statement, before we even touch on the inherent biochemical nonsense.

Also, don't you still have to put in work for steroids to show results, whereas EPO provides instant benefit by taking advantage of natural metabolic processes?

Isn't this correlation versus causation? Why does this drop off have to be PED related and not related to the odd timing of the Olympics that year? Since the test wasn't available until the Olympics, anyone who wanted to use EPO could have right up until the Olympics.

But in 2001, the second and third fastest 1500m times in history were run, in addition to the other twelve men under 3:32 (eleven if you discount Saidi-Saif). 2001 also saw five men at 1:43.00 or better, and five more under 1:44.00. The year before, nine men under 3:32, with El Guerrouj, Lagat and Ngeny well under 3:30. How does this correspond with a drop off in EPO use you claim has been responsible for much of the improvement of the all-time lists in 2000-2001?

Does that make the most sense? To me, given the list of convicted PED users, that Moroccans have a higher propensity of PED use than East Africans.

I have hard time seeing this drop off you say occurred after 2005. The 2:06 barrier has been broken over 20 times since the introduction of EPO testing, with 16 of those times having been run after 2005. All eight sub-59:00 half-marathons have been run from 2006-2009.

Moroccans definitely aren't what they once were.

1) It's not a matter of these guys lying (except for some of the gulf states when they issue new passports). A lot of them don't know how old they are.

2) In this case, I'd blame it on 40,000 years of running a lot at high altitude.

3) For cardiovascular efficiency, there's only so high you can go. Famously, Alberto Cova didn't run as quickly when he blood doped than we he did. You would think that Cova could have run much faster than 27:37.59 with added blood doping but he didn't.

I think everyone can agree that East Africans have a lot of things going for them to make them excellent distance runners. The idea that they would be more than a solid step ahead of Europe and America, espeicially given that the lifestyle of those continents severely detracts from their ability to produce top distance runners, makes sense.

Looks like you're done your homework CzechGuy. While I agree with most of your assertions pertaining to the Africans, in all fairness I have a hard time believing that doping isn't prevalent in the US and Europe as well. Woody's looking at you Mr Ritz...

HaHaHaHa.Czech guy is so full of shit. Mindless accusations. If you're so positive about Africans doping as you "seem" to be than why don't you do something about it. Oh never mind, it's just all a "conspiracy" right. God forbid some third world country might be better than the U.S or Europe at something. I mean we can't have that, can we?

woody wrote:

Looks like you're done your homework CzechGuy. While I agree with most of your assertions pertaining to the Africans, in all fairness I have a hard time believing that doping isn't prevalent in the US and Europe as well. Woody's looking at you Mr Ritz...

I agree, but whilst the fastest times are being done by Africans and they tend to come from individual groups all linked to a certain manager and usually a doctor, it's probably fair to focus on them.

Especially as they seem to get a free pass from most people. If the circumstantial evidence surrounding these people surrounded a group of Spaniards or Russians, people like Mobile9 (on the run) would be the first to condemn.

But he went to Addis once so he knows that they don't dope.

Just looking at the Original Post.

To me "caught" means suspended so Lagat was not caught. Inconlusive results were leaked. It only proves one of the two samples was flawed. He may very well have used something but he wasn't caught. He wouldn't have that Olympic Silver medal otherwise.

The Africans that are good go pro. Those with less talent go to America. That easily explains that.

The mediocre africans prior to 1995 held all of the distance records and won nearly all of the distance medals.

The top atheletes in all events are likely using drugs so I don't know why this seems like an African phenomena.

Do you have a mesage for drug cheats in America since they have the greatest number of positive test results?

"Isn't this correlation versus causation? Why does this drop off have to be PED related and not related to the odd timing of the Olympics that year? Since the test wasn't available until the Olympics, anyone who wanted to use EPO could have right up until the Olympics."

And why does this drop off have to be related to the odd timing of the Olympics that year and not do the first effective EPO test? The Olympics in 1988 were also "timed" later than usually, exactly in the same time like the Olympics in Sydney 2000 (since 16/17th September). Yet you can observe nothing of the sort like in 2000.

The times dropped in the 5000 m and 1500 m (which was however related to the trend of the gradual disappearance of European milers after 1985), but they were actually significantly better than previous year in the 800, 3000 m steeple, 10 000 m and the marathon. In 1968, the Olympics took place in October, yet the times were again better than previous year in most disciplines. It is usual that performances peak during the Olympic year.

The fall of times in 2000 persisted for the next 1-2 seasons.

http://ospage2000.ic.cz/SportGraphs.htm

You can argue that only a small drop in the best time happened in the 1500 m, but for me to believe that Ramzi, Mourhit, Boulami, Saidi-Sief, Chouki, Hachlaf, Kaouch, Tighazouine, Habassa et al. were drug-loaded and the biggest star was clean is hard to accept. 800 m is another story, because it was just the sudden drop of performances of Africans that enabled Bucher+Borzakovskiy to excel.

"Does that make the most sense? To me, given the list of convicted PED users, that Moroccans have a higher propensity of PED use than East Africans."

Or the East Africans have better doctors from Europe.

" have hard time seeing this drop off you say occurred after 2005. The 2:06 barrier has been broken over 20 times since the introduction of EPO testing"

The marathon is the only exception. And what is remarkable, the curves look relatively "normal".

Still, the performances also began to increase as late as in 1997 and the improvemt is a bit quicker than we would expect. And the recent world records were broken 3 times by "flying Africans" like Tergat and Gebre.

If one discipline strongly deviates from the common trend, and it is a road discipline, then the fact that it is a road discipline may be the most important factor. I don't know, how strict doping tests in the marathon are, but you could see that Susan Ch. took her "supplements" with her to USA without any fear. If any doping exists in the marathon, my impression is that it is a light doping on a mass scale. The marathon is 99% aerobic, after all, so there is no need for huge doses.

"1) It's not a matter of these guys lying (except for some of the gulf states when they issue new passports). A lot of them don't know how old they are."

Some of them even don't know that they let their passports be falsified.

"2) In this case, I'd blame it on 40,000 years of running a lot at high altitude."

But curiously, only a small part of East Africans ran at high altitude for 40 000 years. The rest sat at home for the whole time. This is the most plausible explanation of the unusual development we see in current track.

"HaHaHaHa.Czech guy is so full of shit. Mindless accusations."

Kenya just only has one of the highest number of doping cases per capita in the world. That doesn't mean anything.

"The mediocre africans prior to 1995 held all of the distance records and won nearly all of the distance medals."

East Africans only held the best time in the marathon prior to 1992. Coe held the WR in the 800 m, all the records from 1500 to 5000 m were held by one man, Aouita. And the world record in the 10 000 m was held by a Mexican.

East Africans started to improve world records after 1992, but with the exception of Ondieki and Sigei in the 10 000 m, the improvements were only cosmetic. The real "breakthrough" came as late as in 1995.

Their medal success between 1988-1995 can be primarily ascribed to the lack of competition. Their performances in the 800/1500 m were mediocre by the standards set in mid 80's. Kibet, who was the 2nd fastest man in the 1500 m in 1992 (3:32,13), would be only 8-9th in 1985, and Kemei, the 3rd fastest, would be 10th. Actually, none of the Kenyans in Top 10 between 1989-1994 ran faster than 3:32,13 and none would be better than 8th in 1985. Everything began with a sudden improvement of Kemei in 1995, and the next year, a sudden flood of sub-3:32 Kenyans began.

Doping cases in athletics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_sport

USA - 68 (0.22 per million)

Russia - 40 (0.28)

Germany - 17 (0.21)

China - 16 (0.01)

Morocco - 14 (0.44)

Greece - 14 (1.30)

Nigeria - 13 (0.08)

France - 13 (0.20)

United Kingdom - 12 (0.20)

Belorussia - 12 (1.24)

Romania - 10 (0.47)

Kenya - 9 (0.23)

Hungary - 9 (0.90)

Ukraine - 9 (0.19)

Italy - 9 (0.15)

Bulgaria - 8 (1.05)

Finland - 7 (1.31)

Canada - 7 (0.21)

Spain - 6 (0.13)

South Africa - 6 (0.10)

Jamaica - 5 (1.77)

Sweden - 5 (0.54)

Brazil - 4 (0.02)

Serbia - 4 (0.55)

In both stats, Kenya is the 12th most doping nation in the world. (And I don't include the fresh Tanui's case.) Forget romantic fairy-tales about natural talents.

The drug I used in 2003-2006 was : milk, ugali, hard training, respect for their jub, top motivation, will to overtake their limit. This didn't work with everybody, but who was able to follow reached top results.

The problem is that, with top results, there is also... good money, and too many time for a Kenyan this is the beginning of the end. You can come to Kenya staying with me one month, you can see the real problems of these people, you can see the big difference between their training when motivated and mentally free and when confused because of some problem, and you can change idea. This is the only way for changing idea : to know the situation you are speaking about.

About 10000m, the fact that during the last years the results are worse is very easy to explain : there are no more competitions on that distance. See what happens next year (free from championships) when Bekele comes back with the idea to beat the record again.

Did you decide to leave Italy when even they decided to get heavy handed with dopers?

You never had that problem in the past there.

And, about the fact that is my strong convinction that EPO doesn't work with these top athletes, I don't have any proof, except the fact that I had athlets COMPLETELY clean (I don't want they take also a normal supplement) able running the WR in steeple or 26'30" in 10000 : so, can I believe that for them is possible running 7'45" or 25'50" if I give EPO ? And, if yes, why I have to suppose that Bekele is with EPO if able running ONLY 26'17" ?

The reasons of the contraction of results are different : for example, in many meetings now the organisers prefer to have races WITHOUT rabbits, and the competitions become more tactic and, may be, more interesting.

Not only, but the talent is not something possible to buy in a supermarket. So, when we speak about 1500m (for example), and we see Asbel Kiprop, can we think is must be doped for running 3'31" when Sydney Maree ran 3'29", and, almost 30 years ago, 3'31" was a normal time for good European runners (but not top champions) as Deleze, Gonzalez, Hudak, Wessinghage, Diaz, Abascal and other that now I don't remember ? How many Kenyan were able to run very fast 1500m ? You don't think that one of the problems was a poor training system, compared with the methodology of Britons (that was followed from the athletes of Maghreb, Morceli and El Guerrouj, this one in my opinion REALLY CLEAN, while I cannot be sure about the other Maroccan) ?

So, this is the difference between me and you : I believe in the effect of training, you believe in the effects of doping. So, if for having results I need to train my athletes, ONLY, for having the same results you need to DOPE them. In the most part of the case, results don't come because this is a mental limit, discouraging the athletes in reaching their top.

moron

it means i've treated a clinic full of guys with hbs of 20 & none were 12'37 guys

are you too stoopid to understand this ???

i suggest you look up kennster's haematocrit & tell us if it was 45 or not

your study is nonsense

find one where it correlates their hb/haematocrit with their actual race times

moron

that maintenance of 95% saturation shows genetic advantage of the ethiopians in maintaining saturation

if you took europeans from sea-level to that altitude, they'd be showing levels probably nearer 93%

read above stoopid

no

idiot

you said ethiopians have no genetic advantage

i said they likely do

name the athlete moron & don't just pretend

not unless it is way over 50++ & extreme dehydration

you don't have a f***ing clue about medicine !

misunderstood what ?

do you know anything about transfusions ???

no

it's because rieti is only mainstream tree-surrounded track

webb ran 1'43 & 3'46 on similar tree-lined tracks at low-level meets

if rudisha had run there instead of rieti he wouda also gone 1'42-flat

no

it's nonsense

drivel

please what ???

I AM TALKING TO A MORON WITH NO KNOWLEDGE OF PHYSIOLOGY OR MEDICINE OR ATHLETICS

& majority of ones with 01/01/19xx dob are little more than 1y out, as elders usually make an annual trip to nearest reigistry office to register births/deaths/marriages

learn some perspective idiot

moron

junior or not, he ran 7'30 before he even won a senior ( all age ) x-country title

if you had any clue about the sport you'd have realised from evidence of x-country he was going to run some astonishing times as soon he aimed both barrels at the track

yes it is

learn something about athletics, fool

drivel

show me scientific proof showing what is "epo-sphere" ???

drivel

also libel

i suggest the moderators pass your IP address to rosa for him to take legal action against you

complete & utter drivel & more libel

you haven't got a f***ing clue about the sport

tergat was in fantastic shape in '00 :

the initial 7k was run at pedestrian pace & tergat left it too late to wind-up the pace to break geb

last 3k run in 7'54 ->26'20 pace

8th km in 2'40 ->26'40 pace

9th km in 2'40 ->26'40 pace

10th km in 2'34 ->25'40 !!! pace

if they'd run a wabbited race in perfect circumstances, the wr wouda gone

idiot

iaaf/wada reassessed the epo test after this & withdrew the french study link in '03

did you not see it ???

i am going to ask the mods for your IP address myself

don't f***ing dare libel anyone unless you are prepared to take the financial consequences

complete moron

v02 max is only 1 part of the equation

it involves no blood tests whatsoever

lactate-tolerance is as/more important than v02 max

have you any clue at all about physiology ???

then you are talking drivel

north africans have nothing to do with east africans

you have nothing but your bullshit to throw at east africans

try again boy

drivel

no f***ing proof, just a moron spouting nonsense

moron

1'42.01

7'53

12'37

26'17

2"03+

have all been run within last few years

these are exceptional athletes, much better than their peers

no

you are talking drivel with virtually all your accusations being nonsense or libel