Why Ultrarunning is Dumb

The reality is that no one here can tell me when an event becomes too extreme. When is it too much? At some point, you must return to some concept of balance.

Let's take Badwater. Why not require all participants to complete the race without a crew? Throw in the cinder block and the fur coat as well. Wouldn't that be the ultimate race? Wouldn't the winner of that race be the greatest ever? Or would they simply be dead?

I get asked why I don't do ultras, and the answer to that is simple. THEY ARE DUMB. The people who participate in them are imbeciles. They're not great, wonderful, or inspiring in any way. They are masochists and attention seekers. They want the sport to be known but not attract mass participation because it dilutes their "accomplishment." Compare this to the winner of the NYCM. Is their accomplishment diluted because the race is so popular? Hardly.

There is a reason we distinguish running from ultrarunning. Ultras are of a different spirit and pursue a different aim. They aren't the same sport. Speed hiking would be the better term. But I must now throw down the gauntlet. It's time to let my balls hang out and throw out what I got on this argument.

Who is better?

-My hero Ed Whitlock

-Karno the Magnificent

Defend your answer. Tell me which better represents excellence.

" Why not require all participants to complete the race without a crew?"

Why not remove aid stations from road races?

Wow, you write like you are a child.

I write with crayon, and my mom keys it all in. We fight over the inclusion of cusswords.

Out.

There are old women who walk all the way across the USA. You 100mile guys are weak and pathetic - she is a superior athlete.

Sleep well, loser.

So your hero is a 70 yo dude that can run a fast marathon? Ever think about anything except running? How often do people ask you about running ultras? Does the world give a shit what events you run?

How about this? Instead of debating two runners who both do what they enjoy, let's discuss whether you or Carson Daly are the biggest tool on the planet. Defend your answer. Tell me which better represents tool.

I already took Carson Daly down a long time ago. I'm working on Ryan Seacrest now.

Out.

Worthy debate in progress.

Defining words; There is no virtue in self destruction.

What constitutes the definition of an ultra?? The running community might weigh in somewhere around 50K.

Another jury of peers( Sevral Class mates @ my recent 40TH HS class reunion) clearly stated the simple act of running at age 58 was incomprehensible, regardless of distance.

There are people attempting 5K's at great risk to themselves and there are well prepared folks going 100mi for the sheer joy of seeing so much high country on foot.

I can understand either of them, better than any of the 1000's that park their asses in the hot sun for several hours on a weekend and watch a NASCAR event while inhaling copious amounts of alcohol.

This was actually quite funny.

ilgore wrote:

I write with crayon, and my mom keys it all in. We fight over the inclusion of cusswords.

Out.

As far as the discussion goes, it appears your excessive distaste for ultra runners may stem from a rather antiquated and - again - excessive idea of who a HERO, rpt HERO, should be.

Neither Karno, nor Whitlock come to mind.

I wonder what would happen if you reasses your idea of HEROISM.

I think a hero is anyone who demonstrates excellence in an endeavor. This has to do with quality over quantity.

Mountaineering might be a better example of what I am getting because it has moved in the opposite direction of running. After Everest became a relatively easy thing to do and just another item on people's life lists to check off, climbers turned to more technical ascents. Though Everest is the highest, it is one of the easier mountains to climb. Shorter peaks like K2 actually present more of a challenge. Plus, climbers talk about not just what they climbed but the routes they took and the style they climbed it in.

I don't understand the impulse to go further instead of faster. I don't understand running 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days. I do understand Ritz busting Kennedy's record because it means Americans might finally be turning the competitive corner with the Kenyans and Ethiopians.

I know I am capable of a Karno feat. I think your average Let's Run poster could do the things Karno does. The biggest hurdle is getting the time and support to take off 50 days to do it. I am more impressed by his getting to the next state in time for the race than I am with his running. Hell, I could just do the same mileage he did in my training for the next 50 days and feel vindicated on that score.

These are stunts. Nothing more. They don't impress me. This is because any fool can run far. I would rather see the transcendence of a great race run than a stunt.

Out.

The mistake you keep making is your belief that all ultra runners are like Karno or other self-promoter or feel the ultimate ultra is something like Badwater.

The vast majority of ultra runners I know don't care or do not understand what the fuss is about Karno and do not get involved with ultras for attention. They don't really care what he does. They are out there on the trails with friends or out on the trails training for their next event/adventure. They waste little of their time defending themselves because they don't really care what you or others think. They have found something they enjoy and will keep doing it as long as their legs allow them to do it.

I will concede that an event like Western States is not as nutty as Badwater. Still fairly brutal.

Out.

You know, something that is bothering me about both sides of this argument is the failure to acknowledge that there are people who do ultras because it's on their life list, and that this reason is perfectly valid.

Why is the pursuit of excellence the only thing that matters? Is my wife not allowed to enter a marathon because it will take her 4 hours? I'm a middle distance guy, but in a few years I'd like to run a marathon or two: a fast qualifier and then Boston, just because it is what it is. I have no desire to run more than that (maybe a third, just to try to max out my PR), but maybe I'll end up running 10 like my high school coach did; after his first he said he was through with them. I am also into rock climbing, and I'd like to do something on El Capitan in Yosemite because you know what? I scrambled up the base of the Nose a little ways and I was INSPIRED.

This life list/achievement vs. busting our balls for the love of sport thing is a conversation the climbing community has all the time. Do we really want a whole bunch of gumbys running around with their brand new, matching gear that they don't know how to use, littering all over our favorite crags once or twice a summer? The reality is, yes we do. We want them because more participation overall creates more opportunities for dedicated competitors like us, and provides incentive for companies to make more and better gear for us. This rising tide LIFTS all boats.

You can make the case that we will produce fewer elite runners if the public perception is that all races are about finishing. I would argue, however, that the more people we have involved, the more kids who are going to see it as an activity they can participate in. I would also argue that if this is the concern of the competitive running community, then it is our responsibility to cajole and hagle that "I have to try my best, even if I suck" mentality into the popular consciousness. How many fun runners do you think work at Runners World, anyway?

And as models for virtue go, let's not forget that Aristotle also thought heavier objects always fall faster than lighter objects and that the sun goes around the earth in a perfect circle on a crystalline sphere. He was sophisticated for his time, but he is a country bumpkin by any modern standard.

In iN In wrote:

The mistake you keep making is your belief that all ultra runners are like Karno or other self-promoter or feel the ultimate ultra is something like Badwater.

I think this is key. Kilgore keeps taking specific runners and specific races, and making generalizations about all ultrarunners and all ultra races. Is Ed Whitlock better than Dean Karnazes? Without any question. Is Ed Whitlock better than Yiannis Kouros? Yiannis holds every record from 24 hours to 1000 miles, some by around 10% from the next closest competitor. He's still setting world records into his 50s (outright, not age group). Comparing a real runner like Ed to a real ultrarunner like Yiannis, you'll have a much more meaningful discussion.

Honestly, I don't think people that are critical of ultrarunning are wrong, as there is a lot of valid criticism. There is almost no competition at races. Very few truly fast runners choose to race these distances. Most American ultrarunners care only about completing or setting PBs, rather than aspiring to win and set real records. But most criticisms revolve around ultrarunners, not ultrarunning.

Some ultrarunners exist that would fit into your mold of a real runner, they're just far between and not well known. Cavin Woodward ran under 6 min/mile for 50 miles to set the world record in 1975, then continued in the same race to set the 100 mile world record. He wasn't necessarily any more masochistic than you or any other competitive runner. He was able to run a fast road race (scoring for his team) the following weekend, so it wasn't that he destroyed himself. As far as attention-seeking, he made this comment in the 1990s about why there were more fast runners in the 70s and 80s: “People were more lighthearted in those days — if you blew up there was another race next week. Runners have more to lose nowadays, there is more pressure, and more to win.” To me this says that he didn't really care about the attention. This is reminiscent of the dozens of amateur marathoners from the 80s who would KILL most American marathoners today. Why don't you talk about how slow marathoners are too?

My biggest problem with your argument is that you're taking some the best runners and aspects of distances below the marathon, some of the most phony ultrarunners and ultra races, and using it to claim ultrarunning is ridiculous. There might be valid arguments to make against ultrarunning, but so far all you've done is bicker about a few specific people, and a generic group of ultra "completers" who are certainly no worse than all those people walking 5ks every weekend.

ilgore wrote:

I think a hero is anyone who demonstrates excellence in an endeavor. This has to do with quality over quantity.

Mountaineering might be a better example of what I am getting because it has moved in the opposite direction of running.

Out.

Weel actually a dear friend and very experienced mountain guide and climbing instructor that with events like SPEED climbing a new breed of athletes are completely missing the excellence of the mountain experience both from a physiological and an environmenta/existential perspective. How? Because they are relying a whole lot more on upper-body strenghth to hang and successfully overcome very difficult ascent degrees. But that, in his mind equates to losing the trust in your legs and body to have a truly "close" experience with the stone of the mountain. The speed requirement makes it an almost acrobatic event which has nothing to do with mountaineering"

And from my share of speed-climbing gigs i have seen, while i would not censor them, I would agree with my alpine guide.

Speed can be both an index of Quality and Quantity: the latter when "more" Speed is required, which distorts the athletic gesture.

What about peak baggers? Are they not in a real sport?

Maybe Ultra runners...just like to run.

Kilgore, OVER HERE! I already told you ultra running is not a stunt. It's just running. Wherever you got cinder blocks and fur coats, that has nothing to do with ultra running. You're making shit up. Ultra running is not a stunt just because it's longer than usual, it's still the same putting one foot in front of the other as fast as you can for a sustained period of time. Seriously, stop it with the stunt crap. I guess you would call hurdles races stunts, too.