Duncan Kibet and James Kwambai : the role of Claudio Berardelli, and analysis of something new in training

Yes, a SPECIAL BLOCK is performed on the same day with a morning session and an afternoon session.

Guys, 300m repeats in 37-38" is not crazy for a WR middle distance runner. My college teammate (1:50, 800m) was able to rip off 36-37" for 300m repeats.

With his level of aerobic and anaerobic fitness the 10x300 in 38 is not surprising, as he could run close to his maximum speed for a high number of intervals. El Guerrouj was rumoured to have done a similar session in 35s

Renato, Any way to give an example of their training for Rotterdam?

Yes, but hours after after running 4x1600m in 3:56-3:59 w/ 4:30 down?If I'm a guy who can run 2flat for the 800m and 8:30 for 3000m, that means that Renato would have me run 4x1600m in 4:30-4:32 with 4.5-5min down and then, later that afternoon, come back and run 2x5x300m in 43-45 with 30-40sec down between 300s and 2.5-3:00min down between sets. honest question: how many of us can run repeat miles within 10sec of our personal best time with a few minutes of recovery and then come back for another quality workout in the afternoon?

runna123 wrote:

With his level of aerobic and anaerobic fitness the 10x300 in 38 is not surprising, as he could run close to his maximum speed for a high number of intervals. El Guerrouj was rumoured to have done a similar session in 35s

NativeSon wrote:

Thanks Dr. Canova.

is this gentleman the one who happens to be janeth jepkosgei's boyfriend?

Yeah, it's him. Though I thought she still had her Kenyan boyfriend, too. Maybe not anymore.

Here is from my training log in college (my indoor Mile PR heading into this outdoor season was 4:18.38i) -

AM: 4 x 1600m in 4:23, 4:21, 4:23, 4:24 (5 min rest)

PM: 5 miles steady + 6 x 200m in 31s

Relevant data?

on the runs wrote:

Yes, but hours after after running 4x1600m in 3:56-3:59 w/ 4:30 down?

If I'm a guy who can run 2flat for the 800m and 8:30 for 3000m, that means that Renato would have me run 4x1600m in 4:30-4:32 with 4.5-5min down and then, later that afternoon, come back and run 2x5x300m in 43-45 with 30-40sec down between 300s and 2.5-3:00min down between sets. honest question: how many of us can run repeat miles within 10sec of our personal best time with a few minutes of recovery and then come back for another quality workout in the afternoon?

Yeah it's the combination of the 2 killer sessions that is the amazing part

Defence wrote:

Yes, a SPECIAL BLOCK is performed on the same day with a morning session and an afternoon session.

Guys, 300m repeats in 37-38" is not crazy for a WR middle distance runner. My college teammate (1:50, 800m) was able to rip off 36-37" for 300m repeats.

Thats is not the point, Renato has been advocating the importance of training at speeds specific to race pace, he appears to contradict himself with this example.

Yes, it's true that long runs and high mileage encourage the production of mitochondria and promote the growth of capillaries. The question is WHEN WILL THIS TRAINING WORK. If you want to build a house of 10 floors, when you arrive at the top you cannot continue to build. If you want to be more comfortable, YOU CAN ARRANGE SOMETHING INSIDE THE HOUSE, but you cannot touch the structure, that at the moment is finished.

In the history of mythologies, there were many Coaches and Scientists that used very long runs for the CAPILLARIZATION. The first was Van Aaken, great coaches as Frassinelli from France used to start every season with 3 hours of long run at 5.0 per km (Jazy, WR holder of 2000m). But look at the value of the performances.

Already in 1964, somebody (Snell) was able running 800 in 1.44. In 1979 Seb Coe ran 1.42.33. Now, nobody is able to run so fast. The Kenyan record of 800 is 1.42.24 from Sammy Koskei in 1984.

In 1500m, 30/25 years ago we had a lot of European (not TOP champions) able running under 3.32 (Wessinghage, Hudak, Deleze, Abascal, Gonzalez) and somebody under 3.30 (Auita, Cram, Coe himself, Maree). Athletes from GBR able running 3.33 (Robson, Moorcroft, Rowland) had to find fortune in other events.

In 2008 for the first time in 30 years NOBODY RAN UNDER 3.31.

Instead, in 5000&10000m we continue to improve the best average, and in HM and Marathon everything changed.

Why this, if not connected with the use of LONG FAST RUN, able to give stimula to the body.

Dont forget that TRAINING IS THE ANSWER TO THE PROPOSAL, NOT THE PROPOSAL.

Without stimula in some direction, there is no answer, and the performances go down.

The repetition, year after year, of the same training (running 2hr30 instead 2hr15 at the same slow pace is not a different stimula)brings the athlete to a situation of non progress at the beginning, and of decrease of his qualities in the second time.

Thanks for the response, Renato. Here are some follow up questions:

While I understand your analogy, without the high volume training, won't those mitochondria levels drop (meaning your house begins to sink into the earth)?

I agree that long, fast runs are key to improving a runner's ability, but I am not seeing why it is good for the total volume to drop. From my perspective, the added volume (at low to moderate intensities) would both be maintaining the structure of the house and would serve as recovery from the higher intensity work. Within the confines of your analogy, I would think that rearranging the furniture, at some point, stresses the foundations of the building and so consistent reinforcement (through high levels of low to moderate intensity) would serve you well. This would fall in line with a comment attributed to you saying that, essentially, the mistake of many western coaches is that they believe that easy running is the same as no running, when in fact in can serve several training purposes.

Thanks again for the replies.

Defence wrote:

Here is from my training log in college (my indoor Mile PR heading into this outdoor season was 4:18.38i) -

AM: 4 x 1600m in 4:23, 4:21, 4:23, 4:24 (5 min rest)

PM: 5 miles steady + 6 x 200m in 31s

Relevant data?

What did you run during the outdoor season? If you weren't safely under 4:10, it would seem to me that you left some great races on the track at practice (this coming from someone that wasn't there and doesn't know a thing about you).

RESULTS speak for themselves.

Renato Canova wrote:

Dont forget that TRAINING IS THE ANSWER TO THE PROPOSAL, NOT THE PROPOSAL.

....awesome....

Renato Canova wrote:

Yes, it's true that long runs and high mileage encourage the production of mitochondria and promote the growth of capillaries. The question is WHEN WILL THIS TRAINING WORK. If you want to build a house of 10 floors, when you arrive at the top you cannot continue to build. If you want to be more comfortable, YOU CAN ARRANGE SOMETHING INSIDE THE HOUSE, but you cannot touch the structure, that at the moment is finished.

So let's go back to some simple basic questions:

Let us say that I am a new runner, 15 years old. Or an improperly trained runner, 22 years old, with no house only some furniture on the grass in the front yard. Or an old runner returning to running at age 40 after many years off, no house and broken furniture.

1. For how long do I build this "house" before starting to arrange the furniture?

2. If I am the 15 year old, maybe I can build a 10 story house. How many stories can I build if I am 22? How many stories can I build if I am 40? What is the difference at these various ages as to how much "housebuilding" should be done before stopping to concentrate on "housebuilding" and starting to concentrate on "furniture placement"?

You must answer these questions for yourself, grasshopper!

More Questions wrote:

So let's go back to some simple basic questions:

Let us say that I am a new runner, 15 years old. Or an improperly trained runner, 22 years old, with no house only some furniture on the grass in the front yard. Or an old runner returning to running at age 40 after many years off, no house and broken furniture.

1. For how long do I build this "house" before starting to arrange the furniture?

2. If I am the 15 year old, maybe I can build a 10 story house. How many stories can I build if I am 22? How many stories can I build if I am 40? What is the difference at these various ages as to how much "housebuilding" should be done before stopping to concentrate on "housebuilding" and starting to concentrate on "furniture placement"?

How many story house the athletes can build, depends on their talent and their application. How fast can you build a house ? It depends on how many workers you have, and how much money you can use for having more workers.

There is not a fix rule : but it's sure that top talent (not only African, I think, for example, of Genny Di Napoli or Stefano Mei in Italy)can build their house very quickly. There are athlete already having a high number of mithocondria from their genetic, and for them the time used for building their aerobic house is shorter.

I think, about an athlete 40 years old, starting running only at that time, that the possibility of improvement is very much reduced, because the ability in recovering is not very high, and the intensity that is possible to reach is relatively low. For example, for masters 60 years old, the BASIC AEROBIC TRAINING can be indentified with a SPECIAL TRAINING. For understanding something, I gave some program to my friends from 60 to 70 years old (they were runners when I was young), and I discovered that SPECIFIC WORKOUTS GO TO KILL THEM, also in 800m runners.ù

Because their ability in transporting O2 is reduced, they need LONG RECOVERY, and a Training of Maintenance only. So, I think that is not possible to have a great intervention on the Organic Side, but the performance is strictly connected with the full physical efficiency.

Renato,

thank you for your kind contributions.

I am a little confused about these comments and what you mean by it:

"In the history of methodologies, there were many Coaches and Scientists that usedvery long run for the CAPILLARIZATION. The first was Van Aaken, great coaches as Frassinelli from France used to start every season with 3 hours of long run at 5.0 per km (Jazy, WR holder of 2000m). But look at the value of the performances.

Already in 1964, somebody (Snell) was able running 800 in 1.44. In 1979 Seb Coe ran 1.42.33. Now, nobody is able to run so fast. The Kenyan record of 800 is 1.42.24 from Sammy Koskei in 1984.

In 1500m, 30/25 years ago we had a lot of European (not TOP champions) able running under 3.32 (Wessinghage, Hudak, Deleze, Abascal, Gonzalez) and somebody under 3.30 (Auita, Cram, Coe himself, Maree). Athletes from GBR able running 3.33 (Robson, Moorcroft, Rowland) had to find fortune in other events.

In 2008 for the first time in 30 years NOBODY RAN UNDER 3.31.

Instead, in 5000&10000m we continue to improve the best average, and in HM and Marathon everything changed."

Why do you think nobody is improving that much over the shorter distances?

Am I correct in assuming that you are saying that the improvements in 10k and Marathon are due to greater SPECIFIC RACE focused training.

Why are we not improving over the shorter distances? And you mentioned Snell - didn't he run massive volumes, upwards of 100 MILES per week, and lots of long hard running?

One last question - would you recommend a 10k road running follow basically similar type volume to Marathon?

Thanks again

Along the same lines, 37 years ago, Viren ran 27:38 and it was a world record. Dave Bedford ran 27:30 the next year, also a world record. 35+ years later, we have Ritz and Rupp running in the same range, and for Americans with European roots, those are our best times these days.

Same old, same old. The same Lydiard-influenced methods, the same slow long runs and such, yield the same results (for the best available athletes)....while the Africans have dropped the hammer by more than a full minute, presumably due to higher levels of intensity in training that you see here.

In the UK, from what I've read, young athletes don't want to do the kind of training that Coe did....and the results are what you see.

Coach D wrote:

The same Lydiard-influenced methods, the same slow long runs and such, yield the same results (for the best available athletes)....while the Africans have dropped the hammer by more than a full minute, presumably due to higher levels of intensity in training that you see here.

In the UK, from what I've read, young athletes don't want to do the kind of training that Coe did....and the results are what you see.

Of course you are leaving out an extremely big part of the equation. What else is different between the east africans and non-east africans since the 80's besides your contention (which we will assume is partly correct) of more intense training by east africans? MORE MASS PARTICIPATION BY EAST AFRICANS DUE TO MORE $ IN THE SPORT. During the 60's and 70's and 80's, when non africans seemingly neared their peak (with a few exceptions here and there, like a Hall and Mottram and a few others), there was only a smattering of participation by east africans compared to what exists today. There was a lot of strife in those countries and less organization and attempts to find talent. Once $ really entered the running scene, and some of the strife in those countries decreased a bit, suddenly one saw a great deal more east africans competing in the international scene. Now that has been going on for awhile, we may have seen the near peak of those athletes too. I frankly don't see anyone coming along that is much better than a Bekele or Geb or Komen. Maybe a little better, but not much.

Non-africans were competing en masse for a much longer time than east africans, and that is why they neared their peak sooner. It is similar to the difference between east african men and women. The men have been going at it with a greater participation and focus than the women, and that is why they are more dominant. However, the east african women are getting more opportunities and their dominance is growing. But as great as Dibaba and Defar are, I don't think the women have found their Bekele or Geb just yet. Soon they probably will.

So the non-africans plateauing sooner than the East African have has more to do with the late start the east african had as far as mass participation internationally than it does with some big change in training that they adopted while non-east africans continued to do the "same old same old." But if you want to prove me wrong, adopt these new methodologies, apply them to non africans, and let's see some sub 12:55's and sub 27's and sub 2:06's by non africans.