LAGAT BUSTED!!!! - Kenya Daily Nation Article

No damn way, Legal. Too many people realize, at least implicitly, that performance-enhancing drugs are wrong in sports. Few could tell you why, but I'll bet that they'd agree that it's because drugs alter human biology, thus defiling the spirit of competition: to test the limits of human ability.

If, someday, drugs get legalized, that's the day I say the hell with it and try to improve my golf handicap (probably 50 or worse) to something reasonable, or possibly return to my first love, chess. At least there drugs don't help. Until then, I'll be praying to heaven and training like hell to reach every last inch of potential I have and beat everyone I can, drugs or no god-damned drugs.

Legalizit wrote:

sack up Weldon and show some support for this HUMAN who did what he felt he had to do.

We all are HUMANS who do what we feel we have to do. But there are the CLEAN HUMANS and the DIRTY HUMANS. Lagat is a dirty one. He is a cheater. Did you read his journal at the iaaf.org site? What a piece of crap. He definitely set a very good example for his foundation and the young kenyans.

We still have Bernards commercial up at nikerunning.com... check it out and let me know what you think.

Wow I really didn't expect that from you legalizit. All of these special training methods you prescribe to, shall we just say screw it and take the drugs?

I think that we've seen the last of those Nike commercials with Lagat.

i was teammates with lagat at washington state and i am shocked. i can't believe that this is true. he was such a nice, genuine guy -- the last person i'd ever expect to be on drugs. if this is true, i know now that there is not one top tier world athlete who is not on drugs. if lagat is on them, they all must be on them.

$money.

What are you trying to say?

isn't there anything about this on the IAAF website???

reports from Kenya during the World Champs

www.eastandard.net/sports/sport030903006.htm

www.eastandard.net/sports/sport27062003004.htm

www.eastandard.net/sports/sport27082003013.htm

www.eastandard.net/sports/sport260803013.htm

Kapten Kangaru wrote:

My point was not that Lagat's dirty urine (and let's lay aside the bullshit about the B sample; Lagat and his entire squad of handlers reacted with utter shame) implicates all East Africans, but that many on this board - which is known for rowdily implicating all of East Africa - are now reacting with surprise over the busting of one of them. In other words, the hype they created turned out to be the real deal, at least on a micro scale (and let's not pretend Lagat is the only Kenyan juicing; we were all born with brains and it's only fair to use them occasionally).

Now that you understand, does what I wrote seem less absurd?

Well . . . I can't really say whether your assessment of the level of surprise shown by the knee-jerk east-African bashers is accurate or not. My surprise-o-meter has been on the fritz lately.

But I am glad to hear that you don't really think that Lagat's case in any way implicates other east Africans. I really am.

Did't Goucher beat him back then.

you have to be suspicious of anyone who rises out of nowhere (performance-wise) to the elite level. It should usually be a gradual improvement to the top. For example, this Ukranian Heshko guy, where the heck did he come from to start running 3:32s???

same goes for dieter, he had been running what 13:38s or what not for a while and suddenly he drops a 13:12 and 12:54, wtf?

then you got ali saidi saif (who's running in van damme), he comes oout of seemingly nowhere to start running sub 13s and getting a medal at the olympics. surprise surprise! he's on drugs. btw, he didn;t qualify for WCs cuz he couldn't make the cutoff 13:21. Imagine thhat, someone who had no probs busting well under 13 having trouble running 13:21.

Man, Noah Ngeny has to be juiced also. Another guy who pops a 3:43, wins gold, and then poof, disappears with "injuries" and then runs sub par times (for his ability).Even if he was injured, he's had ample time to recover and run fast(3:30) times,instead he's pulled a Webb. Did you see his results this year? BTW, they said he was 21 or something like that, no freaking way. His face screams upper 20s. Either that or he needs some anti-wrinkle cream!!!

El G and Haile are the models for people not on drugs. Look at how they rose to the elite level, pretty consistent upward. El G ran 3:48 well before his mid-20s, so he was fast from the get-go. Geb won WCs back in the day and has performed well every year. You take EPO every year for like 10 years (about how long he's been at hte top) and you'll prolly be dead right now.

I hate to bring this up, as Kimani is the man, but you have to wonder, he goes to Europe and drops a 13:12 or something like that and doesn't come close to that when he comes back to US for his stint at University. Then he dies mysteriously, pretty much the same way Chelimo died and Flo jo. What is going on here?

Looking for consistency and the gradual upward improvements when it comes to non-EPO users.

These are just my opinions, and if you have a problem with it....oh well.

The question about how they test for EPO, this is to the best of my knowledge.

I believe I read that they analyze samples magnetically. Synthetic EPO has a different charge of some sort, and through careful analysis, the different between regular healthy EPO and doping EPO can be detected. I'm sure my science is trite and a little off, but I think it's something like that.

In cycling they would often test for EPO simply by hematocrit levels. 42-49 or so is healthy and attainable through just living, genetics and training. And i'm sure there are natural outliers beyond that. In cycling if you'd test over 52 (or maybe 50, i think 52), they would see this as a positive. Since it wasn't proof positive, they would make you stop competing until you tested in regular levels. Part of this was for health reasons.

I am doing this from memory off of something I read over a year ago, so if anyone can clarify me, please do.

Well said Soup Nazi. I agree about El G and Geb. Some people are born to be great. For example, Lance Armstrong was always great, even as a teenager. Most of us aren't invited to the Olympic training center at 16 years old.

As for legalizing drugs, we've had this conversation before. The answer as to why it shouldn't be condoned is difficult because the idea of a level playing field among athletes is rather philosophical. If EPO is immoral, then is an oxygen tent? Don't they both achieve the same end which is to increase hematocrit beyond the "natural" level of the athlete. And how about living at altitude? What if you are a talented athlete from a poor family who can't afford to re-locate to high altitude? Aren't you at a disadvantage? Yes. Are the athletes who do train at altitude doing something immoral? No. So how does one draw the line? Every form of this argument comes back to the health of the athlete. The argument against drugs only makes sense on these grounds. The reality is that there will never be a level playing field. Some people just have more talent. Someone else may figure out a great innovation in training. The nature of competition dictates that there will be a winner. And the winner is the winner by virute of the fact that the combination of talent and training put everyone else at a disadvantage.

The best rebuttal to pro-drug advocates is to warn them that they risk making the sport into something akin to American gladiators. The only interest in knowingly addled runners will be a freak interest. The drug-league will be a sideshow and every time you will hear someone say, "I wonder how fast someone NOT on drugs could run." This might create interest in a non-drug sport but this sport will then be beset, always, by cheaters who are looking for the acclaim that will come from being the best clean athlete. So a two-league system is not a solution, it just reduplicates the problem.

As for the athletes themselves, we need to stress the health risks of drugs. For the most part, they are adults who assess the trade-offs inherent in doping vs. winning money and fame. Anyone with experience at a high level in the sport knows that there are always people around ready to offer you this or that to help you win. Always. The structure of sanctions needs to go much deeper than the level of the athlete. I don't mean to suggest we criminalize cheating, as France and Italy have done, since I don't see how dopers and their pushers are a threat to the social order. But I do think lifetime bans for all those involved in a case are in order. (It would be refreshing to hear a full mea culpa from one of these athletes, naming a full roster of who aided them. In fact, for those who are wondering how Bernard Lagat can salvage himself, perhaps he ought to consider bringing down the house with him.)

the thing that cracks me up is why is this "watershed" or even remotely a surprise??? I doubt there is a single running event record that is "untainted" I say..let them all drug..that way at least I can know which guy is the best or has the best "cocktails" at least

Good read!

But how can you say that Geb and EL G is not suspected???

Why should the best ones be clean, when a lot of the most talented runners in the world can't beat their times even with drugs.

Do you believe that Haile would run about 1 minute faster than Aouita who was the finest long distance runner in the world in the 80's???

Where is the sense here?

Of course Geb and El G are using some kind of stuff...

They are just as nice as Lagat...!?

i haven't even read the posts to this point. but I am not surprised. i am a division 1 college track coach. all the people in our office from other sports have been asking me about the world championships. i told them i haven't watched a single minute of it on TV. professional track vs. collegiate track is like professional wrestling vs. collegiate wrestling. same name, different sport.

I disagree. I think it's too bad that athletes are risking their health for money. I know there are lots of jobs where people make this trade-off (mining, steel mills, meat-packing plants) but most of them at least have unions and worker comp and other ways to help them once they are no longer able to work. (Will they use to if not anymore.) Athletes who ruin their health have nothing. For me, the bottom line is that the sport is corrupt, and therefore uninteresting, if the athletes are ruining their health for my entertainment.

my post was half tomgue in cheek..but seriously..the sport is sooo bad right now in that the educated fan can't tell who is juiced and who isn't ..they can hypothesize but no one really knows..thats my point