Lydiard style mileage asscention (sp?)

Well I thought I should share the results of my race/time trial. It was a 5K road race and the temp was about 20 degrees with a stiff North wind. I only ran a 15:15 and was pretty disappointed. I felt I raced smart eraly and ran within myslef but was never able to really run fast. I went through the first mile in 4:47 and then ran a 5:00 when I felt like the group I was with started running faster for the second mile. My stride felt good and the pace felt comfortable but I just couldn't go. It was heart breaking watching a group of 5 just ahead of me racing for second with Boaz Cheboya (sp) way out in front. For the day no one really ran all that fast. An old college teammate placed 3rd and as of 2 weeks ago ran 8:06 for 3K and only managed to run 14:55. I have to admitt I am a little shocked to have run so slow when in the past I have run faster times off of less mileage and work. I am aware that this was my first race in 4 months and that it's whats ahead that really matters but can't help but feel a little down. I don't know what happen. My stride felt smooth and strong and mentally I was ready. I guess my plan is to strat doing more speed stuff on the track in hopes of reaching my goals over the next 3-4 months.

Caught my eyes so I'll be the first to respond. Typical reaction. That's probably when most people get discouraged and switch. You said you felt good but just couldn't go any faster. Well, when you start out coordinating your program (the final stage of the Lydiard cycle), (1) you either feel like very strong and could have run the race over again but just couldn't go any faster, or (2) feel fast but couldn't keep up the pace (the third one actually being the lap time going all over the place). It sounds like you need to work on leg-speed Not so much anaerobic training (might); but leg speed. All the conditioning work (mileage) alone will not get you to the peak. You need BALANCE.

I'm working on the Lydiard presentation Part II right now with tons of case studies. When Snell was training for Perth Empire Games in 1962, he got injured and had to take 2 months off right before track schedule began. His first 1 mile trial took him 4:41 and shocked how slow he was! After 6 weeks of sharpening, he ended up wining 880 yards and one-mile gold medals. You need to balance your training. The fact this was the first race in 4 months, you're still on the right track. So I'd say...

So you have two choices: Get discouraged with one race and give it up and take another route; or keep your faith in the system and stick with it. You can switch to more apeed (anaerobic) oriented traning here on and you'll improve dramatically. But make no mistake; if you continue to improve, it is because of the base work you have done so far. Almost everybody will improve once they start running faster. But how you attain that is where the real key lies. If you start out with such faster work next season, without building the base, you'll most likely hit the wall much faster.

OK. I agree with Nobby as far as the training aspect goes, BUT what struck me on first reading this was the race conditions. 20 deg with a strong North wind. Man, in this Kiw's experience that is bloody cold. Then the next thing I noted was your old buddies time. Not that it was slow but the fact you were not far off him.

To me if he can run a 8:06 3k, then theoretically he can run around 14:03 for 5k. This guy runs 14;55. Was he disappointed ?

Somehow I think not as it was the conditions of the day that knocked you guys around, not 'poor' running.

I feel your run was pretty good in the circumstances.

I had a guy who I help Coach (4:04 miler) who ran almost your exact time in his opening 5k of the year just this last season. He was quite happy with that as he was just coming off a good 'buildup'.

An aside here :

I can vividly remember an opening season 3miles I ran when a College student in the US (Back in the stone age !!!). It was run in very high winds and I ran 16 minutes to win!!!.

I used to time trial faster than that !!!

My point is I feel sometimes we have to be "racers" not "pacers". ie Time is not important.That was a strength on mine in my later career.

Hints of Bill Baillie here Nobby !!!

To me you must stick to your guns and continue with your good work. Notch up that 15:15 to the cold weather and roll on the next one. I for one am not disappointed.

My first reaction was similar to Kim's. If everyone is slow I wouldn't be shocked if I was also slow. It would be one thing if you ran 15:15 and a half dozen guys were a minute faster. But no one really ran all that fast it's more likely that the conditions were at fault.

If the 5,000 is going to be the distance you focus on, I think it would be worthwhile to look for some races in the 800-2 mile range to use as a way of getting used to faster paced running.

Ditto HRE on this one ,

Alright I have a question on doubles. Earlier in this thread it was suggested someone like myself should jog for a half hour in the mornings often for recovery. The Run With the Best Book also suggests that. However, Run Strong warns that many runners start doubles before they are really needed, and Marty Liquori's Elite Runner's Guide (which I am currently enjoying) says one really doesn't need to worry about doubles until their mielage hits 15 on most days.

I am hoping to hit 50 miles this week, so the question is, are doubles something I should even consider? Obviously I can fit 50 into a week in singles no problem. But would there be some benefit in doing some super easy morning running? I would love everyone's thoughts.

Good books--both of them. You got a classic from Liquori (do you have a cover? I lost the cover. Can you possibly scan the image of the front cover and send that to me? I'd appreciate it very much).

My answer to your question would be the same as quite a few other questions from various people; it depends. If you feel good about going for an easy jog in the morning, by all mean, try to do it as much as possible. I do if I went 20~40 minutes easy jog. So I try to do it as much as I can. But if you feel absolutely dreadful doing it on the top of your regular 50MPW, I don't give a damn who says it's best to do the doubles, Lydiard, Liquori, Benson, whoever; don't.

My other standarized answer would be; you seem to be still quite low in mileage. I don't know exactly what break-down of those 50MPW you're doing; but it would pay to do at least two long runs of about 90~120 minutes. If you're ONLY doing, say, an hour a day to reach that 50, forget morning jog. Build your long runs first. Actually, I'd take it back. You don't have to completely forget about it. Do the doubles on easy days just to beef up the mileage. You can do something like:

Monday: 30 min. + 45 min.

Tuesday: 30 min. + 1 hour

Wednesday: 1:30 hour

Thursday: 30 min. + 45 min.

Friday: Fartlek

Saturday: 30 min. + 45 min.

Sunday: 1:30~2-hours

I'd guestimate you'd do 3-mile for 30 min. 10 miles for 1:30...something like that??? This would be somewhere around 50. Build up your long runs. If 4 days of doubles are too much, cut back. You should be able to handle a schedule like this easily.

Actually, I do have a cover. I will have access to a scanner at my sister's house sometime during this week so I will get you a scanned image. I was surprised at how cheap I found the book.

I think I should worry about bulding up my long runs first, the only problem in all of this is I have had a pesky achillies problem that likes to pop up from time to time. It isn't bad, I just need a couple easy days and some ice, but I am struggling to get it to where it NEVER pops up.

But my main question is, are you really suggesting I run 10 mins/mile? I am no elite runner, and I have no trouble from an ego standpoint running slow, but running THAT slow will take a lot of effort. When I run easy I usually do 7:45-8:15 a mile or so.

No, I'm not. I just gave those numbers for the argument sake. You go whatever you feel comfortable. The only thing is; don't start running at 7:30 pace for, say, 12 miles and die at the end and end the 1:30 run prematurely. If you can run 1:30 to 2-hours at that tempo COMFORTABLY, by all means... For the morning jog, though, don't get too ambitious as yet. If you can handle 30 minutes AM at 7:30 pace and another 45 minutes PM at 7:30, it might be better going for 1:15 at 8:00 pace once a day to build up. To me, morning jog is morning jog. I go very slow--that's as much as I can handle if I'm doing a decent workout in PM. Some, like Pre or Quax or Walker, might go out and pound fairly hard AM and PM, day after day. On the other hand, Viren was running 10km in AM in 45 minutes. That's farily slow for a man who ran 10,000 in 27:38. Put that in perspective.

If you had to throw out a % of maximum heart rate I should be doing those 45 minute-2 hour long runs at, what would it be?

Nice try! I had to go back and check what I've said otherwise, if I give different figures, I'd be called a laier! Just kidding.

I think I gave something like 120~150 or 160 HR for 1/4 effort. I gave such a big range simply because individuals are so different. I check my HR once in a while when I run on a treadmill. It's somewhere around 140~150 for me to be pretty comfortable. I'd call 170 and over 1/2~3/4 effort. Of course, I'm pushing 50 now. I don't care too much for convetional HR% chart. When I do reps on treadmill, I reach around 180~190 and that's way beyond 70% for even 20s or 30s (I think) but I feel good with it.

Also, since I brought up Viren, I was just getting some info on him for the presentation... Most of his runs were done at HR below 140. Approximately 20% or less were above 140 throughout the year except during the racing season the ratio actually dropped down to around 10%, indicating he did lots of easy jogging. Once again, though, here the man whose resting heart rate was...well, I don't know but I'll bet it was around 40 and who could push it to beyond 190. Keep that in perspective too.

Once again, before someone jumps, 7:30, 8:00 or 10:00... It doesn't really matter. You do what you feel right. No pointing forcing yourself to slow down; but no point forcing yourself to stick to a certain pace if that doesn't work for you.

Nobby- did you get that cover in your email? I sent it last night to the email attached to your username here.

In either the "Lore of Running" or "Running With the Legends," I don't have time to check now, there's a week of Viren's running listed along with heart rates for each run. There's one 15 km run where his heart rate is listed as 81. It was a slow 15 km, maybe 75 minutes or so, but I can't even read about someone running 15 km with a heart rate of 81 without getting my heart rate to 81.

Spooter:

Yes, I got the cover image. Thank you.

HRE:

I forgot about that. I checked it (it was in "Running with the Legends" by Mike Sandrock) and was amazed how much of his running was done at heard rate below 100! I actually don't buy it like face-value. I wonder how they measure it first of all. I don't think they had HR monitor at the time; I remember seeing his coach checking Lasse's HR after the fast runs by holding his hand over Lasse's chest. I also remember seeing him searning several nodes while running an 8km leg of a relay race. I seriously doubt they did that every time he went out for a run. Chances are; he may have checked his HR after his run but, as well-conditioned as he was, his HR must have gone down quite fast. It's hard to believe he was running a 15km in less than an hour with HR around 84bpm... Well, he may have.

All I can say is; with all the Japanese running so slow as well; if they eliminated all those "junk miles", Viren would have been the first to go under 27-minutes and some Japanese, like Seko, would have been the first to go under 2:06. Pity they wasted their talent doing all those "junk miles"...

Sorry. It wasn't when he ran 15km in 58' that his HR was 84. It was when he did 15km in 1:24 that his HR was 84 and 12km in 50' at 84. Also listed was a 25km run in 1:46 at HR 96 as well as a 22km run in 1:30 at HR 122. He seems to have done lots of fartlek over soft ground (so I've read) but also did lots of runs at his HR between 80 and 120. Actually, again, supposedly more than 70% of his runs were done at HR less than 140.

So putting it all together. 5 - 10K schedule in miles.

Base phase (no time limit) Running done at 65 - 75% MHR

M 3 -5 10 x 100m strides T 8 - 10 w 3 -5 H 10 -12 F 3 -5 S 6 - 8 S 12- 15 miles Primarily on grass, but varying terrain and surfaces

Next 6 - 8 weeks ( in miles)Same as above with running surfaces

M 3 - 5 easy fartlek T 8 - 10 easy W 3 - 5 tempo H 10 - 12 easy F 3 - 5 fartlek S 6 - 8 steady stateLT S 12 - 15

Hill phase 4 weeks

M 3 -5 10 x 100m T 8 - 10 easy W 3 - 5 hill workout H 10 - 12 easy F 3 - 5 easy S 6 - 8 hill workout S 12 - 15 easy

Anaerobic training 4 weeks

M 8 - 10 12 - 16 x 400m T 8 - 10 easy

W 3 - 5 fartlek H 8 - 10m 16 - 20 x 200m F 3 -4 10 x 100m strides S 5 - 10K time trial S 12 - 15 easy.

Sharpening phase 4 weeks

M 5 - 6 miles 12 x 100m wind sprints T 10 - 12 easy W 6 8 time trial 800 or 1500m H 6 - 8 easy fartlek F 3 -5 4 x 100m fast relaxed S 3 -6 race @ 3K to 10k S 12 - 15 easy

Racing taper Week 1

M 5 - 6 20 x 50m wind sprints T 6 - 8 easy W 4 - 6 time trial @ race distance H 4 - 5 fartlek easy F 3 - 5 4 x 200m relaxed strides S 3 - 6 race 1500 to 3000m S 10 - 12 easy

Racing taper week 2

M 5 - 6 16 x 50m wind sprints T 4 - 7 easy fartlek W 3 -4 time trial 800 or 1500m H 3 - 5 slow F 3 slow S 1st important race 5 or 10K S 12 easy

Peak racing 2 to 4 weeks

M 4 - 5 easy fartlek T 3 - 4 4 x 200m relaxed strides W 4 - 6 time trial or race H 3 - 4 easy fartlek F 3 - 4 4 x 200m relaxed strides S 6 - 8 (race) S 10 - 12

Basically pretty good...except for the latter stages. What it is is to coordinate everything you have so far developed. I know some people argue that it's got nothing to do with how Halberg "coordinated" his running that got him the gold medal; but in our school, it is important to teach your body to run the specific distance strongly and smoothly without any apparent weakness (in fact, Craig Mottram's training that HRE shared on other thread sort of indicated the same concept though I know some people still would like to argue that Bideau's coaching is not the "correct" way...). I know you put race on Saturday from 3 to 10k but I'd concentrate a bit more on 5k (assuming that's your primary goal distance). Running trials of 800 and 1500 is fine, if you need to do that, but it may get you too big of an oxygen debt. You might want to think about at least alternating 800/1500 and 5000 weekly.

Then when you get to the Peaking Phase, 200m relaxed strides are fine but I would go a step further and actually do something like 3~5 X 200m at full effort. Don't be afraid to do full sprint. You're at sharpening phase; I know Americans LOVE to do strides but it's also okay to do some full sprints. Speed is not a four letter word (well, obviously...). In fact, Lydiard would be the first to agree that you'd need to hone your speed.

Final thing is; don't strictly adhere to the predetermined schedule particularly in the final 4~5 weeks. Gauge your own reaction and determine what to do along the way. That's what training is all about; evaluation of exercises.