You are. You are the Woody Allen of Letsrun. Sitting behind your computer screen wearing your tweed jacket and horn rimmed glasses being pessimistic about American marathoning. You have your 900 page volume of Sartre’s Being and Nothingness placed next to your keyboard in case you start feeling accidentally unconditionally happy for someone’s accomplishments. Give us another post with bullet points about why we shouldn’t be ecstatic about Mantz’s run today.
I got really high before reading this and went down a rabbit hole researching Woody Allen being a pessimistic dude....did not disappoint, thank you for the inspiration.
Way to misread what I wrote. If you want to throw a parade, don’t let me stop you. There are a lot of positives from today worth celebrating, which I acknowledged. I just feel ambivalent about it, all things considered. My perspective is just as valid as yours.
Your perspective sucks and is worse than mine. There is literally nothing to be sour about. Why can’t you just be happy for Conner and that’s it? What he has done is incredible. Now nobody can say the United States is stagnating in the marathon because finally we have somebody who is at least competitive even if he isn’t the best. So the U.S. is now no longer stagnating, it’s improving. You’re like Woody Allen. You can’t just be happy for someone for once, you have to over-analyze and find something to gripe about in your existential misery. Ambivalence is not good enough.
Great. The best American man ever would finish now under a mile behind the WR! Such a great mark!
When he wins two Olympic golds, then you can talk about him being as great as Shorter.
Shorter ran against diluted competition. So, though Mantz will never have the impact of Shorter on the sport, yes, he might be considered a greater marathon runner with a few more fast times and some medals with the likes of Kiplimo, Korir, Sawe in the field. You think Shorter would have any golds if the East Africans were focused on the roads in the 1970s, no way. The only historical US distance great who would be competitive for gold today would be Jim Ryun. Shorter/Rodgers would be in the 2nd pack running right along with Mantz.
So who won gold in the 3 Olympic marathons preceding Shorter's gold? East Africans. They didn't do that without a "focus on the roads."
All the dumb dumbs poo pooing this, must have forgotten that Americans have been running marathons for awhile now, hundreds on super shoes, and none of them broke the record until now.
So talk all you want about other athletes. No one else broke the record until Mantz.
Still doesn’t change the fact that prime Khannouchi would run circles around mantz.
Shorter ran against diluted competition. So, though Mantz will never have the impact of Shorter on the sport, yes, he might be considered a greater marathon runner with a few more fast times and some medals with the likes of Kiplimo, Korir, Sawe in the field. You think Shorter would have any golds if the East Africans were focused on the roads in the 1970s, no way. The only historical US distance great who would be competitive for gold today would be Jim Ryun. Shorter/Rodgers would be in the 2nd pack running right along with Mantz.
So who won gold in the 3 Olympic marathons preceding Shorter's gold? East Africans. They didn't do that without a "focus on the roads."
Do you seriously think there is any comparison in terms of depth of talent? Of course not.
So who won gold in the 3 Olympic marathons preceding Shorter's gold? East Africans. They didn't do that without a "focus on the roads."
Do you seriously think there is any comparison in terms of depth of talent? Of course not.
The main difference is they didn't have EPO back then. Bilika was handpicked as the best talent out of hundreds of thousands of Ethiopian soldiers, trained 2025 style 150MPW at high-altitude training camps full-time in 1960, very likely given every ped that was available back then, yet still didn't 'dominate' against guys who were running part-time on 35 MPW.
No Kenyan broke 2:09 until EPO, then suddenly the damn burst. Funny that.
Do you seriously think there is any comparison in terms of depth of talent? Of course not.
The main difference is they didn't have EPO back then. Bilika was handpicked as the best talent out of hundreds of thousands of Ethiopian soldiers, trained 2025 style 150MPW at high-altitude training camps full-time in 1960, very likely given every ped that was available back then, yet still didn't 'dominate' against guys who were running part-time on 35 MPW.
No Kenyan broke 2:09 until EPO, then suddenly the damn burst. Funny that.
Ah, yes, Bilika! He was an inspiration for the likes of Kenio and Rushida.
Honestly it's hard for me to feel excited about this. It's been way too long in coming. In the same time that the world record moved from 2:05 to 2:00, the American record has moved from 2:05 to 2:04. Even if we just compare pre-super shoes to post, the world record went from 2:02:57 to 2:00:35 (more than 2 minute improvement) while the American record has only gone from 2:05:38 to 2:04:43 (less than 1 minute improvement). Clearly not even an equivalent performance. Put Khannouchi in super shoes, and he still has the AR.
Honestly it's hard for me to feel excited about this. It's been way too long in coming. In the same time that the world record moved from 2:05 to 2:00, the American record has moved from 2:05 to 2:04. Even if we just compare pre-super shoes to post, the world record went from 2:02:57 to 2:00:35 (more than 2 minute improvement) while the American record has only gone from 2:05:38 to 2:04:43 (less than 1 minute improvement). Clearly not even an equivalent performance. Put Khannouchi in super shoes, and he still has the AR.
At that rate of improvement, by around 2050 the World Record for the marathon will be around 1:55 and the American record for the marathon will be just under 2:04. We will finally have a 2:03 (though very high 2:03) marathoner. Yipeee!
Congrats to Conner on his new American record. 2:04:38
The bar has been raised for everyone.
Except for all the non Americans who are faster than him
Kind of like how Hall was getting beat by multiple people from other countries as well, yet people think he'd be faster than Mantz today if he has the same shoes. I'm not following the logic, as Hall wasn't winning races like this either.
Honestly it's hard for me to feel excited about this. It's been way too long in coming. In the same time that the world record moved from 2:05 to 2:00, the American record has moved from 2:05 to 2:04. Even if we just compare pre-super shoes to post, the world record went from 2:02:57 to 2:00:35 (more than 2 minute improvement) while the American record has only gone from 2:05:38 to 2:04:43 (less than 1 minute improvement). Clearly not even an equivalent performance. Put Khannouchi in super shoes, and he still has the AR.
At that rate of improvement, by around 2050 the World Record for the marathon will be around 1:55 and the American record for the marathon will be just under 2:04. We will finally have a 2:03 (though very high 2:03) marathoner. Yipeee!
I know you are joking, but I don’t think it will really take long to see even multiple performances in the 2:03s or even faster. Fisher, Young, and Blanks all have more upside and talent than Mantz and all three of them are capable of running under 2:04. Hell, even Hocker and Teare might be able to run that fast if they took the build up seriously and managed to stay healthy. Mantz himself may be capable of sub 2:04. He would probably have a better shot if he takes a break from road racing and runs XC and track for 2026. Nobody is expecting him to beat anybody significant with his limited turnover, but I think it might benefit him to run in some 3ks, 5ks, and a 10k this spring and just focus on getting the wheels back. I think he is actually capable of a 26:50ish and 13:05. That will translate nicely into a 2026 fall marathon like Chicago again and he’ll have some fresh turnover to make the pace easier for a shot in the 2:03s.
still way behind, but this is a huge positive step. instead of being 35 years behind, it's only 20.
Yeah, this doesn't really feel like that big of a deal, because I guess the best US marathoners will be running 2:02 in about another 10 years or so... ?
Also, is Conner Mantz clean?
Is it possible to run 2:04 clean... and with Mantz's ridiculous looking form?
Honestly it's hard for me to feel excited about this. It's been way too long in coming. In the same time that the world record moved from 2:05 to 2:00, the American record has moved from 2:05 to 2:04. Even if we just compare pre-super shoes to post, the world record went from 2:02:57 to 2:00:35 (more than 2 minute improvement) while the American record has only gone from 2:05:38 to 2:04:43 (less than 1 minute improvement). Clearly not even an equivalent performance. Put Khannouchi in super shoes, and he still has the AR.
Indeed, the AR progression had stalled for men and sort of still has. This is an example of breaking even under inflation.
Kind of like how Hall was getting beat by multiple people from other countries as well, yet people think he'd be faster than Mantz today if he has the same shoes. I'm not following the logic, as Hall wasn't winning races like this either.
When Hall ran 2:06:17 in London, the world record was 2:04:26. He was 1:51 slower than the world record. Mantz's 2:04:43 is more than 4 minutes slower than the current world record.
Kind of like how Hall was getting beat by multiple people from other countries as well, yet people think he'd be faster than Mantz today if he has the same shoes. I'm not following the logic, as Hall wasn't winning races like this either.
When Hall ran 2:06:17 in London, the world record was 2:04:26. He was 1:51 slower than the world record. Mantz's 2:04:43 is more than 4 minutes slower than the current world record.
Yeah but it is a minute closer than 5 minutes away. People set the bar so high. We should be ecstatic that Mantz finally broke a 23 year old AR, was only 2 minutes behind arguably the most talented phenom ever, and was 4th place in a fast race in Chicago. I feel for some of you, nothing is ever good enough. Mantz in one race put the U.S. back at least in the mix. But some people on this board are still complaining.
Honestly it's hard for me to feel excited about this. It's been way too long in coming. In the same time that the world record moved from 2:05 to 2:00, the American record has moved from 2:05 to 2:04. Even if we just compare pre-super shoes to post, the world record went from 2:02:57 to 2:00:35 (more than 2 minute improvement) while the American record has only gone from 2:05:38 to 2:04:43 (less than 1 minute improvement). Clearly not even an equivalent performance. Put Khannouchi in super shoes, and he still has the AR.
I argued about this in the active Kannouchi thread, but Kannouchi wore shoes that were without question more advanced and lighter than his predecessors’ shoes from decades before. So he had an advantage too compared to before his time. The 70s guys also had better shoes than were available in the 60s and 50s. So it’s a perennial advantage and therefore people are a little overly focused on it and not giving Mantz the credit he deserves. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
More than the record. Can we look at what Ed Eyestone has done in the last 10 years? He has provided how many Olympic marathoners? National champions , in NCAA and in the pros.