85 - beaten by Cram in WR time. Cram broke both 1500 and mile WRs for a month and was undefeated over both distances on the track. Cram was athlete of the year that year.
You are misquoting me. I never wrote ('for a month').
BBC Sports Personality of the Year is not the same thing as World Athlete of the Year! Muppet.
There are 2 reputable Athletic Publications that have been voting for 'Athlete of the Year' since WW2 - T&FN in the USA and AW in UK. In 1985 AW voted for Cram as World Athlete of the Year. Certainly he was ranked no 1 over 1500m/1 mile by both publications.
It's obvious your not a single inch better than this laughable British fan boys who since years change any facts to their liking.
That's not true! I never 'change facts', which implies they are somehow 'made up'. I rarely post stats that are not 100% accurate, and if I do they are never deliberate mistakes. Leaving out certain facts that are not assisting with an argument when having a difference of opinion is not the same thing as making them up. Why would I or anyone give facts to someone that would strengthen another poster's claim/opinions at the expense of my own? That's doing their work for them. Everyone has a point of view and an opinion. In discussions like these each poster is going to produce evidence that supports or backs that point of view, like a defence solicitor in a court of law. Such a person isn't going to build up a defence of someone to then just give the prosecutor loads of points that will help them make an opposing argument. I don't see what your problem is?
You are a very knowledgeable athletics expert and provide amazing stats, but you really should learn not to tarnish everyone with the same brush and not take it so personally when someone offers selective evidence.
The 2nd point re Ovett's 50.5 2nd lap is totally relevant and not a silly stat at all. It was a huge negative split in a championship race. The ideal pace to run your fastest 800m is for the first lap to be between 1 and 2 secs faster than the 2nd. Ovett ran 4.4secs faster on 2nd lap. Of course Rudisha's WR run in London was superior, but Rudisha wasn't around in 1980 was he? Irrespective, Rudisha never ran a 50.5 second lap in a championship final, so my point is relevant.
In 2015 World Champs Rudisha ran 54.2/51.6 (2.6sec negative split) - 1:45.84 (on the rails for entire 2 laps) for gold.
In 1980 Olympics Ovett ran 54.9/50.5 (4.4sec negative split) - 1:45.40 (lots of bumping, checking stride and about 3-4m wide in total) for gold.
Ovett's performance is superior to Rudisha's performance here.
It's silly to point on a 50.5 last lap after an extremely slow 1st lap as something unique when someone has run at a higher speed for the full race. It's really not that hard to comprehend.
2015: Rudishe didn't speed up with one lap to go, but with maybe 250m to go. His last 200 was 24.34, that's some significant mark. And he led from gun to tape. You would point on this over and over again if the runner in question was named Coe or Ovett, but here it's not helpful for your argumentation, so be quiet about it seems legit to you. It's also completely silly to compare the best performance by one athlete with some performance of someone else far from his best. But still, it's not that clear which performance is superior.
Ovett ran a great race in Moscow, but not that otherworldly as you and your friends always want to suggest.
Olympic 800m winning times:
1976: 1:43:50
1980: 1:45.40
1984: 1:43.00
1988: 1:43.45
1992: 1:43.66
1996: 1:42.58
2000: 1:45.08
2004: 1:44.45
2008: 1:44.65
2012: 1:40.91
2016: 1:42.15
2021: 1:45.06
So, since 1976 all are faster than the 1980 one, with two exceptions significantly faster. So comparing some split times is not such a big help. Most of those winning performances are superior to Ovett's. While not running such a bad race, Coe clearly would have beaten Ovett. And he was not a sub 1:42 runner then.
You're doing it again!! Lol.
I am fully aware that Rudisha's last 200m in 2015 Worlds was quicker than Ovett's in Moscow, but that is not the point I'm making. I can't even remember what the original point was now, because you've gone off at a tangent. Look, irrespective of the finishing time (yes, not that fast but there have been plenty of championship finals slower over the years) or the last 100m (12.7 for Ovett, not the fastest by any means), it is a fact that Ovett's 50.5 (through some traffic) 2nd lap in Moscow is still the fastest 2nd lap of any Olympic 800m. That shows it was a special run. I used Rudisha's similar (slightly slower) finishing time in 2015 as a comparison, illustrating that even though both first laps were of similar pace, Ovett was quite a bit faster over the duration of the 2nd 400m.
Notice I didn't mention/dwell on the fact that I agree with you re Coe in that final. His 2nd lap was 50.6/50.7, but he ran c. 6 or 7m wide on that lap, meaning it was more like 49.8 had he been able to run on the rails. I didn't mention it because it wasn't helping the quite specific point I was making. You do realise (I hope) that I consider Rudisha a greater 800m runner than Ovett? Of course Rudisha would have been capable of running such a 2nd lap off a 54.9 first 400m if the circumstances precluded it. BUT, nonetheless, Ovett was in magnificent form that day and I have seen nothing from any Kenyan 2 laps runners in 79 or 80 that would suggest they would have beaten Ovett (or Coe) that day. I will concede that had Maina (Ovett had actually beaten him over 1000m in 79 too) and Paige both got to the final it would probably have been played out differently and could have changed the result somewhat. I personally think it would have helped Coe to win. Yet Ovett ran against who was there on the day, won (even though he would most certainly have been disqualified had it taken place in the last 20 years) and shouldn't have his title of Olympic Champion dengraded because there were no Kenyans there.
Aouita was the AOY in 85, but for sure Cram also has had credentials for this title.
Aouita lost to Cram in 85, the only top name he dared to face that season. He only faced Cram in Nice because everybody thought Cram was injured again and going to be below his best (he had missed some time with calf problems again and had been beaten by McKean over 800m).
Cram broke the Mile WR in a real race again Coe and Gonzalez (easing down at the end). He also raced Coe at the start of the season over 800m.
Aouita finally broke the 5000m WR (if Moorcroft had had pacers in 82, he would have kept the WR until the EPO era). He tried to break Cram's mile WR but failed.
After destroying Cruz over 800m, and clearly in 3:27 1500m form, Crammy was going to retake the 1500m WR, but sadly got injured again.
Aouita had a great season in 85, but Crammy had a better one and also beat Aouita in a race (when Cram was not yet at his peak). And I don't know what L'innoculater is saying when claiming Cram broke one WR and Aouita two. Cram broke the 1500, mile, and 2000m WRs. He would also have beaten Coe's 1000m WR if not for the fact he was running solo on a windy and cold Gateshead track.
I'd say Cram was capable of running 3:44 high/3:45 flat with more even pacing in Oslo. That's worth around 3:28 low. I don't think he was quite in 3:27 shape.
Aouita ran a terrible tactical race in Nice and quite a few metres wide on the bends. He left himself too much to do on the last lap and was closing on Cram along the home stretch. I agree with you that Cram wasn't quite at a peak in Nice compared to Oslo a few weeks later, but then Aouita was definitely also in 3:28 shape in Nice. There was very little between them.
Yes, Moorcroft would have run faster over 5000m with pacers, but then Aouita was capable of faster than his eventual 12:58 pb. Over his career, Aouita showed himself to be a better 5k runner than Moorcroft.
I get fed up reading about how it's always windy ('gale' is usually bandied about, inaccurately) whenever Cram runs well. The wind that night was in one direction (against him in the home straight, not swirling about) and averaged 2m/sec. So he had the benefit of it behind him down the back straight, which cancels the head wind out. He was not running 'solo'. He was paced and drafted to 600m by Rob Harrison (same pacer Coe had for his WR), exactly the same amount of pacing Coe got in 81. By 800m, despite the wind behind him down the back straight, Cram (1:44.9) was already behind Coe's (1:44.6) schedule. That gap of 0.3 increased to 0.7 secs, about 5m at the finish. So no, it was not a given that Cram would have broken the 1000m WR that night. It should also be remembered that 4 nights before Coe set his 1000m mark, he had largely solo run a 3:31 1500m with the first 2 laps of 52.4 & 1:49.1, in which a blister burst on the ball of his foot. So his 'build up/conditions' were not ideal either.
Cram apparently ran in 'a gale' in the Commonwealth 800m as well! But even though the temperature and average wind readings in the sprint events that day were almost exactly the same as they were a few weeks later in Stuttgart for the European 800m final, no one ever mentions the same conditions there! Plus it was raining heavily in Stuttgart, which will also slows down times.
Likewise, Coe ran in windy conditions in his 79 1500m WR and his mile WR 81 in Brussels, but these are never mentioned as they are for Cram.
and you are writing this shamelessly. It's your home with your biased medias.
Oh, so what did that great, historical, world respected Moroccan publication have down as world athlete of the year in 1985!?
oh yes, that’s right, they never had one!
The editor of AW at the time was one of the world’s leading statisticians and published writer of athletics until his death a few years ago. It has been a bible of athletics since 1945. But then you wouldn’t know that because you have shown to have a limited knowledge of the sport and/or the era.
You have listed a win from Ovett over Boit (by a few hundreds) from 76 to show he was not going to beat him in Moscow 80. And you have not forgotten to list his five defeats against Boit by big margins in this period, so you did it deliberately.
Now you are saying it's a moot point. No interest in some serious discussion, as so often.
Boit in 80 probably would not be a big factor in Moscow, but Kenyan presence probably would have had some big effect on the race.
You can be very pedantic can't you!
I referenced the 76 victory for Ovett over Boit to illustrate that even at his (Boit's) best, Ovett could be dangerous. Of course Boit was better than Ovett over 800m in '75/76. It's a pretty obvious point.
The fact that after 76 Boit never beat Ovett again over 800 or 1500m (until 85) shows that certainly by 79 Ovett was better than Boit over both distances. Thus, going back to the original point I was arguing (before you derailed it into something else), there were no obvious Kenyan threats over 1500m in the Moscow Olympics had they been there! Over 800m, Maina would have been in the mix for sure. But Kenya wasn't the force they are now in 1980.
You are such a dishonest person.
You list a small defeat from Ovett over Boit in 75/76 and ignore to add five losses (some by big margins) because anybody know's Boit was the superiour runner then? Ovett was 5th at the Montreal olympics, so not a hobby jogger. And for your biased countrymen even back then he was thought to be a medal threat. And apart from a very small minority nobody in letsrun knows anything aboit Boit and or Ovett in 1976.
Pedantic? Says the guy who from the bed now can write the ultimate combendium about any cold Sebastian Coe has had during his running career.
That Boit has never again beaten Ovett over 800m after 76 gets more plausible when another info gets available to the reader: they have not raced. Hey, I have NEVER lost to Ovett over 800m (or 1500m).
Your original point is exactly this: the 80 Olympic final is the strongest ever with all those doped up East German 1:42 runners (who unfortunally hardly could break 1:45) and a Dave Warren in sub 1:43 form) and those weak Kenyans hardly would have reached the 2nd round.
Sorry, after well over 10 years confronted with this childish bias it's hard to stay serious anymore.
It's obvious your not a single inch better than this laughable British fan boys who since years change any facts to their liking.
That's not true! I never 'change facts', which implies they are somehow 'made up'. I rarely post stats that are not 100% accurate, and if I do they are never deliberate mistakes. Leaving out certain facts that are not assisting with an argument when having a difference of opinion is not the same thing as making them up. Why would I or anyone give facts to someone that would strengthen another poster's claim/opinions at the expense of my own? That's doing their work for them. Everyone has a point of view and an opinion. In discussions like these each poster is going to produce evidence that supports or backs that point of view, like a defence solicitor in a court of law. Such a person isn't going to build up a defence of someone to then just give the prosecutor loads of points that will help them make an opposing argument. I don't see what your problem is?
You are a very knowledgeable athletics expert and provide amazing stats, but you really should learn not to tarnish everyone with the same brush and not take it so personally when someone offers selective evidence.
This is exactly my point. Thanks for clarifying, I really couldn't have said it any better.
You are the absolute master in giving factually correct stats, while ignoring necessary information for the full picture. There are so many examples.
And maybe you just check the meaning of "opinion".
That's not true! I never 'change facts', which implies they are somehow 'made up'. I rarely post stats that are not 100% accurate, and if I do they are never deliberate mistakes. Leaving out certain facts that are not assisting with an argument when having a difference of opinion is not the same thing as making them up. Why would I or anyone give facts to someone that would strengthen another poster's claim/opinions at the expense of my own? That's doing their work for them. Everyone has a point of view and an opinion. In discussions like these each poster is going to produce evidence that supports or backs that point of view, like a defence solicitor in a court of law. Such a person isn't going to build up a defence of someone to then just give the prosecutor loads of points that will help them make an opposing argument. I don't see what your problem is?
You are a very knowledgeable athletics expert and provide amazing stats, but you really should learn not to tarnish everyone with the same brush and not take it so personally when someone offers selective evidence.
This is exactly my point. Thanks for clarifying, I really couldn't have said it any better.
You are the absolute master in giving factually correct stats, while ignoring necessary information for the full picture. There are so many examples.
And maybe you just check the meaning of "opinion".
Deanouk just admitted that he is a liar. He lies because he considers himself an attorney (advocate) for the white runners he honors. So he admits he would not give information out to the opponent that could weaken his own case as an “attorney” for the white runners. Sickening…
It's silly to point on a 50.5 last lap after an extremely slow 1st lap as something unique when someone has run at a higher speed for the full race. It's really not that hard to comprehend.
2015: Rudishe didn't speed up with one lap to go, but with maybe 250m to go. His last 200 was 24.34, that's some significant mark. And he led from gun to tape. You would point on this over and over again if the runner in question was named Coe or Ovett, but here it's not helpful for your argumentation, so be quiet about it seems legit to you. It's also completely silly to compare the best performance by one athlete with some performance of someone else far from his best. But still, it's not that clear which performance is superior.
Ovett ran a great race in Moscow, but not that otherworldly as you and your friends always want to suggest.
Olympic 800m winning times:
1976: 1:43:50
1980: 1:45.40
1984: 1:43.00
1988: 1:43.45
1992: 1:43.66
1996: 1:42.58
2000: 1:45.08
2004: 1:44.45
2008: 1:44.65
2012: 1:40.91
2016: 1:42.15
2021: 1:45.06
So, since 1976 all are faster than the 1980 one, with two exceptions significantly faster. So comparing some split times is not such a big help. Most of those winning performances are superior to Ovett's. While not running such a bad race, Coe clearly would have beaten Ovett. And he was not a sub 1:42 runner then.
You're doing it again!! Lol.
I am fully aware that Rudisha's last 200m in 2015 Worlds was quicker than Ovett's in Moscow, but that is not the point I'm making. I can't even remember what the original point was now, because you've gone off at a tangent. Look, irrespective of the finishing time (yes, not that fast but there have been plenty of championship finals slower over the years) or the last 100m (12.7 for Ovett, not the fastest by any means), it is a fact that Ovett's 50.5 (through some traffic) 2nd lap in Moscow is still the fastest 2nd lap of any Olympic 800m. That shows it was a special run. I used Rudisha's similar (slightly slower) finishing time in 2015 as a comparison, illustrating that even though both first laps were of similar pace, Ovett was quite a bit faster over the duration of the 2nd 400m.
Notice I didn't mention/dwell on the fact that I agree with you re Coe in that final. His 2nd lap was 50.6/50.7, but he ran c. 6 or 7m wide on that lap, meaning it was more like 49.8 had he been able to run on the rails. I didn't mention it because it wasn't helping the quite specific point I was making. You do realise (I hope) that I consider Rudisha a greater 800m runner than Ovett? Of course Rudisha would have been capable of running such a 2nd lap off a 54.9 first 400m if the circumstances precluded it. BUT, nonetheless, Ovett was in magnificent form that day and I have seen nothing from any Kenyan 2 laps runners in 79 or 80 that would suggest they would have beaten Ovett (or Coe) that day. I will concede that had Maina (Ovett had actually beaten him over 1000m in 79 too) and Paige both got to the final it would probably have been played out differently and could have changed the result somewhat. I personally think it would have helped Coe to win. Yet Ovett ran against who was there on the day, won (even though he would most certainly have been disqualified had it taken place in the last 20 years) and shouldn't have his title of Olympic Champion dengraded because there were no Kenyans there.
I just stopped reading the full text.
Great example for the last point.
You even KNOW that Rudisha's 2nd lap in 2015 is not worth for any comparison to Ovett's in 80 - yet you're using it, just to "prove" your point. This is so childish.
There was a big article in one of the biggest German newspapers something like 20 years ago which I will never forget.
The INTENTION of the auther was to show that women are improving much faster in athletics than men and eventually will reach them in a while. Well, the pure intention of this matter is hardly to beat in it's nonsensicality and stupidity, but it's part of the German Zeitgeist (left driven narrativ). One of his last arguments in his long list of stupiditys was that in one event women are already have surpassed men: discus throw, where the women's WR is "better" than the men's. He even was aware that this stat is useless because of the different weights, but he was so happy to "support" his already fixed view that he still mentioned it. Maybe you should contact this guy, I still have this article somewhere. Maybe you could have some good conversations.
This is exactly my point. Thanks for clarifying, I really couldn't have said it any better.
You are the absolute master in giving factually correct stats, while ignoring necessary information for the full picture. There are so many examples.
And maybe you just check the meaning of "opinion".
Deanouk just admitted that he is a liar. He lies because he considers himself an attorney (advocate) for the white runners he honors. So he admits he would not give information out to the opponent that could weaken his own case as an “attorney” for the white runners. Sickening…
So many ignorant posters on here. It is a message board NOT a public information service. My posting is not to give a lecture of all the theories, permeations and historical context of every issue under discussion! You are bringing race and colour into a discussion! Shame on you.
I referenced the 76 victory for Ovett over Boit to illustrate that even at his (Boit's) best, Ovett could be dangerous. Of course Boit was better than Ovett over 800m in '75/76. It's a pretty obvious point.
The fact that after 76 Boit never beat Ovett again over 800 or 1500m (until 85) shows that certainly by 79 Ovett was better than Boit over both distances. Thus, going back to the original point I was arguing (before you derailed it into something else), there were no obvious Kenyan threats over 1500m in the Moscow Olympics had they been there! Over 800m, Maina would have been in the mix for sure. But Kenya wasn't the force they are now in 1980.
You are such a dishonest person.
You list a small defeat from Ovett over Boit in 75/76 and ignore to add five losses (some by big margins) because anybody know's Boit was the superiour runner then? Ovett was 5th at the Montreal olympics, so not a hobby jogger. And for your biased countrymen even back then he was thought to be a medal threat. And apart from a very small minority nobody in letsrun knows anything aboit Boit and or Ovett in 1976.
Pedantic? Says the guy who from the bed now can write the ultimate combendium about any cold Sebastian Coe has had during his running career.
That Boit has never again beaten Ovett over 800m after 76 gets more plausible when another info gets available to the reader: they have not raced. Hey, I have NEVER lost to Ovett over 800m (or 1500m).
Your original point is exactly this: the 80 Olympic final is the strongest ever with all those doped up East German 1:42 runners (who unfortunally hardly could break 1:45) and a Dave Warren in sub 1:43 form) and those weak Kenyans hardly would have reached the 2nd round.
Sorry, after well over 10 years confronted with this childish bias it's hard to stay serious anymore.
You are the one twisting my words. I never said that Boit never beat Ovett again over 800m, I said 'over 800m or 1500m'. Between the end of 76 and August 85 they met 7 more times over 1000m, 1500m and 1 mile and Ovett won all of them. They also met once at 3000m in 82 and Boit beat Ovett. See, I've included a piece of information that has nothing to do with the point I'm making, but it will hopefully make you happy.
I have never said that the Moscow 800m final was the strongest ever! It was relatively weak compared to other Olympic 800 finals in terms of depth. I just don't buy that the boycott affected who the winners would be. I don't believe that had Kenya been there they would have beaten Coe and Ovett. There were no stand outs in 79 or 80 over 800m other than Coe's WR. The next fastest in 79 was Marajo (1:43.9H), who was in the final. Only 2 Kenyans broke 1:46 in 79 - Boit (easily beaten by both Coe and Ovett in 79) and Maina - a genuine medal opportunity.
In 1980 the fastest 800m of the year was Paige's 1:44.53, less than 0.9 faster than Ovett's winning time in Moscow. There was only 1 Kenyan under 1:46 that year - Maina - 1:45.23.
Both Maina and Paige would have been contenders for medals, but both had pbs weaker than Ovett's. I maintain that there were no other Kenyans from 79 or 80 that were certs for the final.
I am fully aware that Rudisha's last 200m in 2015 Worlds was quicker than Ovett's in Moscow, but that is not the point I'm making. I can't even remember what the original point was now, because you've gone off at a tangent. Look, irrespective of the finishing time (yes, not that fast but there have been plenty of championship finals slower over the years) or the last 100m (12.7 for Ovett, not the fastest by any means), it is a fact that Ovett's 50.5 (through some traffic) 2nd lap in Moscow is still the fastest 2nd lap of any Olympic 800m. That shows it was a special run. I used Rudisha's similar (slightly slower) finishing time in 2015 as a comparison, illustrating that even though both first laps were of similar pace, Ovett was quite a bit faster over the duration of the 2nd 400m.
Notice I didn't mention/dwell on the fact that I agree with you re Coe in that final. His 2nd lap was 50.6/50.7, but he ran c. 6 or 7m wide on that lap, meaning it was more like 49.8 had he been able to run on the rails. I didn't mention it because it wasn't helping the quite specific point I was making. You do realise (I hope) that I consider Rudisha a greater 800m runner than Ovett? Of course Rudisha would have been capable of running such a 2nd lap off a 54.9 first 400m if the circumstances precluded it. BUT, nonetheless, Ovett was in magnificent form that day and I have seen nothing from any Kenyan 2 laps runners in 79 or 80 that would suggest they would have beaten Ovett (or Coe) that day. I will concede that had Maina (Ovett had actually beaten him over 1000m in 79 too) and Paige both got to the final it would probably have been played out differently and could have changed the result somewhat. I personally think it would have helped Coe to win. Yet Ovett ran against who was there on the day, won (even though he would most certainly have been disqualified had it taken place in the last 20 years) and shouldn't have his title of Olympic Champion dengraded because there were no Kenyans there.
I just stopped reading the full text.
Great example for the last point.
You even KNOW that Rudisha's 2nd lap in 2015 is not worth for any comparison to Ovett's in 80 - yet you're using it, just to "prove" your point. This is so childish.
There was a big article in one of the biggest German newspapers something like 20 years ago which I will never forget.
The INTENTION of the auther was to show that women are improving much faster in athletics than men and eventually will reach them in a while. Well, the pure intention of this matter is hardly to beat in it's nonsensicality and stupidity, but it's part of the German Zeitgeist (left driven narrativ). One of his last arguments in his long list of stupiditys was that in one event women are already have surpassed men: discus throw, where the women's WR is "better" than the men's. He even was aware that this stat is useless because of the different weights, but he was so happy to "support" his already fixed view that he still mentioned it. Maybe you should contact this guy, I still have this article somewhere. Maybe you could have some good conversations.
Yes the two runs are worthy of comparison, but the subtleties of such a comparison are clearly lost on you!
There is more than 1 way to skin a cat, and there is more than one way to run an impressive 800m.
Ovett's 1:45 in 80 and Rudisha's 1:45 in 15 are certainly worth comparison. I chose them because in both, the first lap was around 54 secs and the finishing times were both in the 1:45's.
Ovett's 2nd lap in 50.5 is unique because it was a prolonged burn up over the entire 2nd 400m. Despite there being athletes with faster 800pbs than Ovett, no one has run a faster 2nd lap in an Olympic 800 final. His last 200m of 25.0 was not as fast as Rudisha's 24.3.
Rudisha's performance is unique because the last 200m was so fast, but that was possible because the stretch from 400 to 600 was relatively slower and not as fast as Ovett's in Moscow.
I was originally responding to you/whoever, that claimed Ovett's 50.5 was not special and not worthy of a mention. Well, it most certainly is. On that day, in that situation, he produced something which hasn't been matched. Others may have run faster finishing times, recorded faster last 200m, last 100m, but none has matched the sustained speed produced over the last lap in a 1:45 or faster in a championship final.
Basically, you are saying that I am dishonest for not giving an entire rundown of all the finals ever run with closing times for all sorts of distances, or for not mentioning all the other fastest closing splits. This is a nonsense. I am not claiming Ovett had the fastest last 100, 200, 500 whatever! I'm stating (which is a fact and thus as honest as can be) that his 2nd 400m of 50.5 was the fastest produced in an Olympic final, and thus unique in that respect. By stating that I'm not even stating that there haven't been others who were not capable of doing it either, and again on this point you seem to think that me not spelling this out is another example of dishonesty.
You are the one being childish because you can't just accept the fact that what I wrote, that Ovett's last 400m in 50.5 has never been bettered in an Olympic final, is totally true and accurate. It is also childish and pathetic to criticise someone for not going off at a tangent and carrying out a historical analysis on various other closing splits. Why would I do this when I am talking about the last 400m!?
You list a small defeat from Ovett over Boit in 75/76 and ignore to add five losses (some by big margins) because anybody know's Boit was the superiour runner then? Ovett was 5th at the Montreal olympics, so not a hobby jogger. And for your biased countrymen even back then he was thought to be a medal threat. And apart from a very small minority nobody in letsrun knows anything aboit Boit and or Ovett in 1976.
Pedantic? Says the guy who from the bed now can write the ultimate combendium about any cold Sebastian Coe has had during his running career.
That Boit has never again beaten Ovett over 800m after 76 gets more plausible when another info gets available to the reader: they have not raced. Hey, I have NEVER lost to Ovett over 800m (or 1500m).
Your original point is exactly this: the 80 Olympic final is the strongest ever with all those doped up East German 1:42 runners (who unfortunally hardly could break 1:45) and a Dave Warren in sub 1:43 form) and those weak Kenyans hardly would have reached the 2nd round.
Sorry, after well over 10 years confronted with this childish bias it's hard to stay serious anymore.
You are the one twisting my words. I never said that Boit never beat Ovett again over 800m, I said 'over 800m or 1500m'. Between the end of 76 and August 85 they met 7 more times over 1000m, 1500m and 1 mile and Ovett won all of them. They also met once at 3000m in 82 and Boit beat Ovett. See, I've included a piece of information that has nothing to do with the point I'm making, but it will hopefully make you happy.
I have never said that the Moscow 800m final was the strongest ever! It was relatively weak compared to other Olympic 800 finals in terms of depth. I just don't buy that the boycott affected who the winners would be. I don't believe that had Kenya been there they would have beaten Coe and Ovett. There were no stand outs in 79 or 80 over 800m other than Coe's WR. The next fastest in 79 was Marajo (1:43.9H), who was in the final. Only 2 Kenyans broke 1:46 in 79 - Boit (easily beaten by both Coe and Ovett in 79) and Maina - a genuine medal opportunity.
In 1980 the fastest 800m of the year was Paige's 1:44.53, less than 0.9 faster than Ovett's winning time in Moscow. There was only 1 Kenyan under 1:46 that year - Maina - 1:45.23.
Both Maina and Paige would have been contenders for medals, but both had pbs weaker than Ovett's. I maintain that there were no other Kenyans from 79 or 80 that were certs for the final.
Over 800m or 1500m clearly meant they raced over both distances and Ovett won all the races.
I even told you that I was not completely serious with the Moscow 800m because your bias is too much to handle over all those years. Coe would be the big favourite in 80, regardless who else is in the field. Were some important athletes missing? Yes, definitely. With Boit and Maina and maybe some "unknown" Kenyan the race probably would be much faster and likely Coe wins.
You even KNOW that Rudisha's 2nd lap in 2015 is not worth for any comparison to Ovett's in 80 - yet you're using it, just to "prove" your point. This is so childish.
There was a big article in one of the biggest German newspapers something like 20 years ago which I will never forget.
The INTENTION of the auther was to show that women are improving much faster in athletics than men and eventually will reach them in a while. Well, the pure intention of this matter is hardly to beat in it's nonsensicality and stupidity, but it's part of the German Zeitgeist (left driven narrativ). One of his last arguments in his long list of stupiditys was that in one event women are already have surpassed men: discus throw, where the women's WR is "better" than the men's. He even was aware that this stat is useless because of the different weights, but he was so happy to "support" his already fixed view that he still mentioned it. Maybe you should contact this guy, I still have this article somewhere. Maybe you could have some good conversations.
Yes the two runs are worthy of comparison, but the subtleties of such a comparison are clearly lost on you!
There is more than 1 way to skin a cat, and there is more than one way to run an impressive 800m.
Ovett's 1:45 in 80 and Rudisha's 1:45 in 15 are certainly worth comparison. I chose them because in both, the first lap was around 54 secs and the finishing times were both in the 1:45's.
Ovett's 2nd lap in 50.5 is unique because it was a prolonged burn up over the entire 2nd 400m. Despite there being athletes with faster 800pbs than Ovett, no one has run a faster 2nd lap in an Olympic 800 final. His last 200m of 25.0 was not as fast as Rudisha's 24.3.
Rudisha's performance is unique because the last 200m was so fast, but that was possible because the stretch from 400 to 600 was relatively slower and not as fast as Ovett's in Moscow.
I was originally responding to you/whoever, that claimed Ovett's 50.5 was not special and not worthy of a mention. Well, it most certainly is. On that day, in that situation, he produced something which hasn't been matched. Others may have run faster finishing times, recorded faster last 200m, last 100m, but none has matched the sustained speed produced over the last lap in a 1:45 or faster in a championship final.
Basically, you are saying that I am dishonest for not giving an entire rundown of all the finals ever run with closing times for all sorts of distances, or for not mentioning all the other fastest closing splits. This is a nonsense. I am not claiming Ovett had the fastest last 100, 200, 500 whatever! I'm stating (which is a fact and thus as honest as can be) that his 2nd 400m of 50.5 was the fastest produced in an Olympic final, and thus unique in that respect. By stating that I'm not even stating that there haven't been others who were not capable of doing it either, and again on this point you seem to think that me not spelling this out is another example of dishonesty.
You are the one being childish because you can't just accept the fact that what I wrote, that Ovett's last 400m in 50.5 has never been bettered in an Olympic final, is totally true and accurate. It is also childish and pathetic to criticise someone for not going off at a tangent and carrying out a historical analysis on various other closing splits. Why would I do this when I am talking about the last 400m!?
You can write a book about the subject and it will not change anything.
Ovett accelerated with 400m to go, Rudisha with around 250m to go. Big surprise that Ovett's last lap was faster. And what can we get out of this? That your pre fixed goal is to highten up Ovett's performance. If the method to do this in reality is helpful or not is unimportant for you.
Ovett's 2nd lap of 50.5 is the fastest in Olympic history? Yes, Deano, it's necessary to add that since 1976 any Olympic final was faster than the 80 one, and that all of them with two exceptions were significantly (almost two seconds or more) faster. A first lap in 54.9 or one in 51.5 is a huge difference, but as a split expert you know this much better than I do.
Be happy to list your factually completely correct stat - Ovett's 2nd lap of 50.5 was the fastest in Olympic history - over and over again. But the gain for the reader is close to zero.
50.5 is out of this world - but for sure Coe could have run 49.8.
Ovett was in great shape and has beaten the by far best 800m runner at the time. But as you know, he definitely should have been disqualified (which surely has no impact on his athletically achievement).
'So he had the benefit of it behind him down the back straight, which cancels the head wind out.'
It does not cancel it out. The wind in your face slows you more than a following wind. If its windy times are always slower overall. 2 mps is not that windy though
'He left himself too much to do on the last lap and was closing on Cram along the home stretch'
Its a race not a time trial. Tactics are part of being a great runner the same as fitness
'So he had the benefit of it behind him down the back straight, which cancels the head wind out.'
It does not cancel it out. The wind in your face slows you more than a following wind. If its windy times are always slower overall. 2 mps is not that windy though
'He left himself too much to do on the last lap and was closing on Cram along the home stretch'
Its a race not a time trial. Tactics are part of being a great runner the same as fitness
I agree with this. Cram has said he didn't even realise Aouita was closing and he had a bit to spare.
Also, seems to me that it's an unwarranted assumption to believe that Aouita would have overtaken Cram if the race had been 10, 20, or 50m longer. We saw Wightman the other day close fast on Garcia but then with 10m to 30m he appeared to slow and made no further gain on him.
