why does David Roche keep banging on about being in sub-4 at altitude shape?

Y'all are swinging the pendulum too far. Why would a pro cycling team help a weirdo like Roche dope? It's much more plausible that he just had a great race when the weather was perfect and nailed the nutrition. High altitude 100 milers are mostly about the preparation and how well you can eat and digest at altitude. Nobody says that Matt Carpenter cheated but he was never a great road/track runner.

He’d definitely be a lot faster if he were doping as hard as those guys haha. He’s good, but he’s not pro peloton doping good

You don’t seem very curious, just critical. Curiosity would leave room for the fact that he could have had a breakthrough after working hard at it for many years leading up to this point!

I worked out with David a few times back in like 2011-3 or so, when he was in law school I believe. Alex Varner worked out with us too. I was probably in 15 flat shape, David was definitely faster than me though not on Varner's level (like 14:20ish maybe?). So maybe 14:40 at that time? Don't know.

Also seemed like a nice guy fwiw. No opinion on what he's like now, haven't followed him.

Oh also, in 2012 he beat Bobby Mack (27:50 10k guy iirc) at the us trail championships. I was there too, that course was f**ing ridiculous. Bobby was in good shape but lost to David by over a minute, pretty impressive (though obviously would have backed Bobby for anything flat).

Sorry one last thing - I thought David had run like a 4:08 or a little better back in those days. But maybe that was something he told me and he was lying? Lol. Regardless, he definitely wasn't too far off that at least back then (though obviously 4:08 is v different from 4 flat).

Are there any actual Track like 1500m or Mile or 5km or certified road race results from David Roche to back up any of this claim? Like any results in a standard non-trail and non-treadmill workout event?

While he may be a fast and talented runner, what is probably his biggest con is the whole 'personal coaching' play. It makes it more dishonest is if he is financially very well off from it too.

Though some people haven’t found David to be a good coaching fit, he definitely does provide personalized coaching to athletes. He’s a talented and fast athlete and also a good coach for some (not a good coach for everyone obviously). I know some great athletes who David coaches that have had really good experiences with him as a coach. You just don’t hear about as many of the good experiences on internet threads where he’s being torn apart

The one world race he ran placed 198th got chicked by 70 women so maybe he avoids high pressure races or anything timed. I gained respect for Kilian when he lined up and ran 29:00 road race in Norway (when everyone thought he could sub-28).

Maybe in the past the coaching was personalized. It’s not anymore. A lot of athletes have dropped SWAP because their coaching isn’t personal at all. David and Megan focus on a few of their top, higher profile athletes and the hundreds of the others that they coach receive a generic plan with little to no actual coaching. This is exactly why so many people have left.

Agreed. So according to David he ran that treadmill workout at altitude he ran the equivalent of 10 x 1 km with one minute rest from 2:55- 2:52.

Altitude adjusted that’s, what 2:50-2:45? You’d have to be in close to 28 flat 10k to run that workout? Maybe 28:30

David is a 14:40 5k runner

So either he’s lying or he’s doping. Or both

November 3, 2013, David Roche runs a 10k for the Georgetown Running Club (while he’s in law school) in 31:36

So that’s 11ish years ago, when he’s 25.

So that’s the roads and maybe or maybe not he’s in very good shape but let’s say this makes him a 31 flat 10k runner on the track. Maybe 30:30

And we’re expected to believe that now, 11 years later, when he’s 36, he’s able to run a 10 x 1 km workout that would make him a 28 flat - 28:30 10k runner?

I did some digging and here are all the road results I can find from his time running with the Georgetown Running Club.

Four Courts Four Miler March 2014 20:37

November 2, 2013 Run for the Parks 10k 31:36 (Roche's club teammate, Mike Franklin, ran the same race in 30:17. He would go on to win the Penn Relays 10k that next spring in 29:32)

September 2013, Half Moon Bay Half Marathon 1:12

I believe that someone who has trained in endurance events for 18 years increases their durability and tolerance for high aerobic performances over many hours. What isn’t so believable is the speed/power part. Speed is a younger person’s game. If we are talking about <5k, his ship has sailed. He hasn’t been spending 18 years focused on those events. Speed work peppered into a trail/mountain/ultra training program isn’t the same. I AM super curious how he could suddenly, at over 35, become Olympic caliber without doping. That’s a fair thing to say. He never showed signs of being at the top before. Similarly, his bike performances have jumped, when he only rides once a week or less. Good cyclists riding hours and hours a week struggle to make the same gains.

The point here is that his “bricks” have probably led him to a higher level of ultra-running. Great! That’s what training is supposed to do. But he is making claims about speed in short events that he’s never exhibited, when physiologically it is just not likely. So the conclusion should be for him to accept people will find it distasteful and openly criticize him for it, or he should just stop making those claims. He brought it on himself.

While I understand David got a late start to running, there's nothing to indicate from any of his road racing results to indicate that he was or would be a sub 4 miler or sub 4 equivalent (sub 14 5k, sub 29 10k), and he especially wouldn't suddenly become one when he's 36.

This isn't jealousy but just the facts speaking: there's no way he can run 10 x 1km with 1 minute rest at 2:55 or faster pace. Not at altitude. Not at sea level with super spikes.

If he does so off the treadmill and backed up by his garmin, then I will shut my mouth. But he won't. Because he can't. But what he can do is fudge the numbers or just lie with a manual treadmill upload bc his strava cult followers will believe him.

I don't really get it. Why does he need to advertise himself as a sub 4 miler when he's obviously not? He said that on the morning of Leadville he could've also run a sub 4 mile at altitude--no, you could not. Not at altitude on the roads. Not at sea level on a track with super spikes and pacers.

Why not just say that he feels that in order to run a fast 100 miler that you should also be able to race a fast mile? That makes sense.

Or why not just say that he has been able to become an elite ultramarathoner without being an elite 10k/5k/mile runner. That makes sense. (his times on the road at 10k etc are nothing to be ashamed about at all)

What doesn't make sense to me at all is the need for him to go out of his way and say he's a sub 4 miler, or that he's elite at shorter distances (10k/5k)

Perfectly said.

I mean, David has been able to accomplish what a lot more "elite" runners at shorter distances (28 minute 10k runners etc), have not been able to do or willing to try to do. That should be his brand. For one, it's the truth.

So, I dunno, he's a liar and/or a doper

so David was in 14:40 5k shape 11-13 years ago, when he was in his mid-20s, and now, when he's 36--way past your prime for mid-distance races--we're expected to believe that he can run workouts that would make him a 13:40 5k runner (not to mention a sub 4 miler).

Nope. No way.

Agreed, but David claims that he is also an elite road/track runner--when he has zero results indicating as much. Why would he do this? Seriously, why?

David is not and never has been an elite road or track runner and yet he has beaten elite road and track runners in trail races/ultras. That should be his brand as a coach and as an athlete--he should be pounding his chest about all the "elite" runners he has beaten in ultras and track races.

But no. Because it's not enough for people like David to just be elite (or "elite") at ultras. You have to be elite at everything. Shorter races, sub 4 mile etc.

Because if he's not elite at shorter distances, but can be successful at long distances on the trails, then that would mean that you don't have to be a traditionally fast runner to succeed at ultras. So he needs to be elite at the shorter distances.

And that's not enough. He has to be the smartest, too. The best at the science, etc (he thinks he's Mark Watney from The Martian). The best (read: controlling) husband. The nicest, most supportive guy you ever met (but actually not).