We talked about this thread a lot on the podcast and also debated Fisher vs Donavan Brazier in terms of talent and career. Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
look i get why people say this, Grant's form has always looked a little robotic because of the way his arms swing, but to think he isn't biomechanically efficient is just ignorant
the video below should cut straight to the downhill on the 2nd lap where Fisher gaps the lead pack and wraps up the W.
think about it, how does such a biomechanically inefficient runner go downhill faster than all of his best peers in the nation AND do so without ever breaking form whereas nearly every other runner ends up going into a partial gumby-mode with arms flailing all over so they don't lose their balance and fall
also kinda funny/ironic given why this thread was started: Grant clearly hit the highest top speed of any runner on that downhill. he's always had sufficient speed to get the job done.
Yes, Grant has always been a great runner, strong and fast. And his form has remained pretty consistent in all levels so it obviously works for him! It reminds me of when Clyde Hart talked about coaching Michael Johnson and he said "he had everything, that's why he's the world record holder" (when MJ still held the 400 record holder). Grant has everything. He's fast, he's strong, he's smart, he takes his training seriously without getting in his own head. That's why he's got American records and medals to show for it. Now, maybe that's not how you spin it to a group of hopeful high schoolers. It's nice for them to believe they can be that good too, even if they're not Stanford engineers with sub 4 mile speed and two FLCC trophies. Maybe not strictly accurate but, hey, they won't know until they try!
A lot of Grants success is all luck and being in the right space and time at the right space and time! I don’t really claim his 2 FLCC victories are really because he was absolutely the God of American high school running. To be objective as per rekbots requirements, Grant won whatever he won only because he did it relative to the level of significant or insignificant competition around him. You can only call somebody a champion limited to the field of runners he beat and that field may not have been the GOAT!
same for his area records. There is nothing glorious about these once you enter the worrisome and suspect history of BTC and its head coach. Grant again only earned and savored these area records to the extent that BTC’s worrisome and suspect doping milieu permitted it!
It’s better for Grant and Hocker to remain humble and best to just retire from the sport after the amount of disgrace they have suggested before our eyes and ears.
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Yes, Grant has always been a great runner, strong and fast. And his form has remained pretty consistent in all levels so it obviously works for him! It reminds me of when Clyde Hart talked about coaching Michael Johnson and he said "he had everything, that's why he's the world record holder" (when MJ still held the 400 record holder). Grant has everything. He's fast, he's strong, he's smart, he takes his training seriously without getting in his own head. That's why he's got American records and medals to show for it. Now, maybe that's not how you spin it to a group of hopeful high schoolers. It's nice for them to believe they can be that good too, even if they're not Stanford engineers with sub 4 mile speed and two FLCC trophies. Maybe not strictly accurate but, hey, they won't know until they try!
A lot of Grants success is all luck and being in the right space and time at the right space and time! I don’t really claim his 2 FLCC victories are really because he was absolutely the God of American high school running. To be objective as per rekbots requirements, Grant won whatever he won only because he did it relative to the level of significant or insignificant competition around him. You can only call somebody a champion limited to the field of runners he beat and that field may not have been the GOAT!
same for his area records. There is nothing glorious about these once you enter the worrisome and suspect history of BTC and its head coach. Grant again only earned and savored these area records to the extent that BTC’s worrisome and suspect doping milieu permitted it!
Right, because anyone who wins two bronze Olympic medals, breaks 5 American records, wins an individual NCAA title, and has won numerous U.S. national titles is really an exceptional beneficiary of rare luck. What an idiot you are.
And the doping accusation, even if it's true, has been already long debated and has been settled as a wash. It's clear most of the elite athletes dope. This subject has been beaten to death already. If Grant juiced with BTC, it's just in line with what every other runner in every pro group is doing. Wake up.
You better have a better space-time explanation for absconding his post of duty in Eugene oregon with no good enough or proportional reasons!
6 nights of sleep. It's a 2 hour flight. why not?
I think it’s only 5 nights because he needs to reacclimatize going up and back down to sea level and going from hot to cold and back to hot and compression/decompression. There is a toll on the body no matter how fit and combined together more than nullifies at least 2-3 nights of sleep each way!
why take the risk? Unless there is something else to gain from Salt Lake City.
even a wife giving birth to a newborn still isn’t enough reason for a professional athlete like Jakob to suddenly just drop all major championships and Olympics to go see his baby so why would there be substantial reason just to go back to sleep?
A lot of Grants success is all luck and being in the right space and time at the right space and time! I don’t really claim his 2 FLCC victories are really because he was absolutely the God of American high school running. To be objective as per rekbots requirements, Grant won whatever he won only because he did it relative to the level of significant or insignificant competition around him. You can only call somebody a champion limited to the field of runners he beat and that field may not have been the GOAT!
same for his area records. There is nothing glorious about these once you enter the worrisome and suspect history of BTC and its head coach. Grant again only earned and savored these area records to the extent that BTC’s worrisome and suspect doping milieu permitted it!
Right, because anyone who wins two bronze Olympic medals, breaks 5 American records, wins an individual NCAA title, and has won numerous U.S. national titles is really an exceptional beneficiary of rare luck. What an idiot you are.
And the doping accusation, even if it's true, has been already long debated and has been settled as a wash. It's clear most of the elite athletes dope. This subject has been beaten to death already. If Grant juiced with BTC, it's just in line with what every other runner in every pro group is doing. Wake up.
Not all the elite athletes dope. I’m pretty sure Chris Derrick and German Fernandez didn’t dope, and these 2 were way more talented than Grant in high school or more accurately way less exposure to man made elektramagnetic fields for being 7 years the senior of Grant when 4G LTE and broadband Wi-Fi hasn’t even been commissioned into society and homes/schools yet! For this reason alone older generations of athletes are by default more physically talented than younger ones.
I can tell you the ones that are doping and not doping one by one. I just need 15 minutes to review each runners space-time profile.
doping is widespread but still not everyone is doing it. If you win a global medal or are top 5-6 and are not East African you are a sure bet to be doping and Chris Derrick and German Fernandez has never done that before so they are clean. There are other space-time to factor in but these are the basic criteria.
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I think it’s only 5 nights because he needs to reacclimatize going up and back down to sea level and going from hot to cold and back to hot and compression/decompression. There is a toll on the body no matter how fit and combined together more than nullifies at least 2-3 nights of sleep each way!
why take the risk? Unless there is something else to gain from Salt Lake City.
even a wife giving birth to a newborn still isn’t enough reason for a professional athlete like Jakob to suddenly just drop all major championships and Olympics to go see his baby so why would there be substantial reason just to go back to sleep?
i disagree on this. and he also might be a bit of an introvert, so 5 or 6 days of being around so many people and having to be "on" socially might take a huge toll on him. Even people who are socially good can get extremely tired from the non stop interaction.
Yes I am Physics royalty! You can test my physics if you like what are you waiting for?
or did I make you nervous when I pointed out that Grant didn’t go back to Salt Lake City to mourn any loss of any loved one but rather, listen to this, TO SLEEP in the middle of a ‘war’ at the Olympic trials
you think he's getting out of dodge to safely get a couple micro doses in? He did the same thing in the olympics as well i think.
but there were 6 days between events, so why stick around to sleep in a dorm room or whatever? Six days of sleep in your own bed can definitely be a huge benefit.
PEDs can turn the most injury prone runners into one that never will suffer a single blip again or one that will have enough bioenergy to recover at the speed of light from it. To be injured in 2024 should have been more common than ever and athletes are supposed to break down way more than ever and retire earlier than ever due to ever increasing man-made elektromagnetica field exposures
I think it’s only 5 nights because he needs to reacclimatize going up and back down to sea level and going from hot to cold and back to hot and compression/decompression. There is a toll on the body no matter how fit and combined together more than nullifies at least 2-3 nights of sleep each way!
why take the risk? Unless there is something else to gain from Salt Lake City.
even a wife giving birth to a newborn still isn’t enough reason for a professional athlete like Jakob to suddenly just drop all major championships and Olympics to go see his baby so why would there be substantial reason just to go back to sleep?
i disagree on this. and he also might be a bit of an introvert, so 5 or 6 days of being around so many people and having to be "on" socially might take a huge toll on him. Even people who are socially good can get extremely tired from the non stop interaction.
Your reasons are getting more and more defensive to the point of unreasonableness. What has introverted personality got to do with expending and wasting multiple gallons of plane gasoline oil and a few hundred American dollars just to have a good sleep? That’s more like egotistical and sinister personality. Guys in Rwanda are starving of food and are poor as hell while guys like Grant are throwing away precious resources just to sleep on a different bed in a different city? Then why didn’t Grant fly to the seaside town of Toulouse France for a quieter night sleep in between his 10k and 5k races at Paris?? It’s only 1 hr away and it’s cheaper!!
who the heck does Grant think he is? Royalty?
for goodness sake just find another quieter hotel in Eugene Oregon and sleep there!! If it’s really about quietness there is a reasonable, moral and ethical way of doing things!!
sadly it was about PEDs sighz
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Fernandez and Fisher had close to equal ability in HS, but at that age, there can be a lot of physical maturity to go. Fernandez had a good freshman year at O.S.U., but stopped improving after that and ended up with 13:25/28:06 PRs. He had no where near the talent Fisher has.
There have been thousands and thousands of Americans distance runners and Fisher holds 3 ARs. He’s also the only American to win Olympic medals in the 5/10 since the ‘60s. He is the most talented American 5/10 runner ever and the closest thing to a East-African runner we’ve got.
1500m national champion at 18 is a "good" freshman year? Not sure where that leaves everyone else.
I also don't think there's ever been an American-born runner that could relegate to German to being "no where near as talented."
There are so many other variables at play. The most "talented" athlete isn't always the most successful.
Yeah, he was great through his freshman year at OSU, but he stopped improving after that. There was some other issues, but there’s zero chance he would have ever accomplished what Fisher has in the 5000m and 10000m. You don’t believe it’s possible that Fernandez reached physical maturity at an earlier age? It happens all the time.
1500m national champion at 18 is a "good" freshman year? Not sure where that leaves everyone else.
I also don't think there's ever been an American-born runner that could relegate to German to being "no where near as talented."
There are so many other variables at play. The most "talented" athlete isn't always the most successful.
Yeah, he was great through his freshman year at OSU, but he stopped improving after that. There was some other issues, but there’s zero chance he would have ever accomplished what Fisher has in the 5000m and 10000m. You don’t believe it’s possible that Fernandez reached physical maturity at an earlier age? It happens all the time.
German still did improve after freshman year but more slowly. Chris Derrick was the same he was also improving year after year even after joining BTC but it nothing meteoritic like Grant. Of course Grant had supershoes to obfuscate the comparison slightly and that’s why you have to scrutinize Grant relative to himself more closely.
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Fernandez and Fisher had close to equal ability in HS, but at that age, there can be a lot of physical maturity to go. Fernandez had a good freshman year at O.S.U., but stopped improving after that and ended up with 13:25/28:06 PRs. He had no where near the talent Fisher has.
There have been thousands and thousands of Americans distance runners and Fisher holds 3 ARs. He’s also the only American to win Olympic medals in the 5/10 since the ‘60s. He is the most talented American 5/10 runner ever and the closest thing to a East-African runner we’ve got.
1500m national champion at 18 is a "good" freshman year? Not sure where that leaves everyone else.
I also don't think there's ever been an American-born runner that could relegate to German to being "no where near as talented."
There are so many other variables at play. The most "talented" athlete isn't always the most successful.
I think German is an interesting comparison point because, as I see it, German is one of the most special distance running talents the US has ever seen. But in German's case, his main talent seemed to be in having a very high "starting position" for fitness and then improving rapidly when he got the right training (when healthy). German nearly made the CA state meet in the 1600 in low 4:20s as a freshman off of fitness from other sports. Then he shows up for xc a year younger than most sophomores, no summer training, and wins D4 state meet in 15:14. Again, this is basically just how good German was off the street and then later he showed he could get back to pretty serious fitness even after his injuries. I see this kind of talent as similar to Andrew Wheating as well, where this guy is just "out of the woodwork" and is amazing, suggesting basically unlimited potential. But then, as they rise up it starts to become apparent that there are other important areas (durability, mostly) where they aren't as "talented."
I think Grant has a lot more varied kinds of talent. I don't know for sure but I'd guess grant did not start out as fast as German or get to his best level as quickly and didn't have to overcome as many injuries as German. But then that's part of Grant's talent. He's more durable, he's better at gauging his training effort and listening to his body. I've heard German could really hammer out training and sometimes be his own enemy when his body was recovering. Also Grant really bounced back from some mental/commitment struggles after his NCAA 5k win to prove that he's got one of the best "head on his shoulders" talents you can have.
Actually, talent for 5/10K guy is partially defined by 400m speed. Someone with 55 speed is not going to be within a minute of Fisher in the 5000m
Counterpoint: Salazar
I know all the stories, but let's be realistic: Someone running 27:25 for 10000 is able to run at least 13:15ish 5k. That means at least 7:47ish 3k. That means at least 3:43ish 1500 and at least 1:53 or so 800.
Salazar was surely able to run 55.xx.
With 55.xx speed you do not run 13:1x 5000.
It doesn't matter what people here think or "feel". If his life depended on it he would have been able to run at least sonething like 54/55 back then.
I know all the stories, but let's be realistic: Someone running 27:25 for 10000 is able to run at least 13:15ish 5k. That means at least 7:47ish 3k. That means at least 3:43ish 1500 and at least 1:53 or so 800.
Salazar was surely able to run 55.xx.
With 55.xx speed you do not run 13:1x 5000.
It doesn't matter what people here think or "feel". If his life depended on it he would have been able to run at least sonething like 54/55 back then.
Also says that he's "coached guys with better lungs and better blood values" but Grant's "best quality is his brain."
“He can barely break 50” means he can run at least 49.xx. That’s actually pretty good speed for a 5k/10k guy. I doubt he has ever trained for 400m, but if he did, maybe he could knock a second off?, so 48.xx.. That plus a ridiculous engine and incredible mechanical efficiency, all spells special talent
look i get why people say this, Grant's form has always looked a little robotic because of the way his arms swing, but to think he isn't biomechanically efficient is just ignorant
the video below should cut straight to the downhill on the 2nd lap where Fisher gaps the lead pack and wraps up the W.
think about it, how does such a biomechanically inefficient runner go downhill faster than all of his best peers in the nation AND do so without ever breaking form whereas nearly every other runner ends up going into a partial gumby-mode with arms flailing all over so they don't lose their balance and fall
also kinda funny/ironic given why this thread was started: Grant clearly hit the highest top speed of any runner on that downhill. he's always had sufficient speed to get the job done.
Allow me to clarify myself. I never said Grant was biomechanically inefficient at 17/18, I said he gradually lost that efficiency as he grew older and suffered more degradation at 20,21,22,23 etc due to man-made elektromagnetic fields exposure! That’s what I was really saying! Look the Grant in this video is a world of difference from the Grant that run in Paris this year. The Grant at 18 was so much more fluid and efficient even with that arm swing of his which is totally fine for then.
but Grant degraded over space and time due to elektramagnetic field exposure and ultimately sought out PEDs to fill in the gaps. Sighz…..
Khamis.. now you are using a different name - you are a loony tune and jealous of the greatest US distance runner of all time.
In fact, Fisher is and always has been clean and therefore just might be the greatest clean distance runner of current time.
Unfortunately for you, either you are a Bot, Khamis or your jealousy of Fisher has the best of you.
Allow me to clarify myself. I never said Grant was biomechanically inefficient at 17/18, I said he gradually lost that efficiency as he grew older and suffered more degradation at 20,21,22,23 etc due to man-made elektromagnetic fields exposure! That’s what I was really saying! Look the Grant in this video is a world of difference from the Grant that run in Paris this year. The Grant at 18 was so much more fluid and efficient even with that arm swing of his which is totally fine for then.
but Grant degraded over space and time due to elektramagnetic field exposure and ultimately sought out PEDs to fill in the gaps. Sighz…..
Khamis.. now you are using a different name - you are a loony tune and jealous of the greatest US distance runner of all time.
In fact, Fisher is and always has been clean and therefore just might be the greatest clean distance runner of current time.
Unfortunately for you, either you are a Bot, Khamis or your jealousy of Fisher has the best of you.
Khamis is an RF engineer while I’m a holographic one. Why are you conflating the 2 identities together? I understand physicists speak a certain metaphysical brand of language because we are build and trained that way in space and time but that’s a valuable skill in us that sets us apart from perhaps you and shouldn’t be used to try to identify one physicist from the other. Physicists are all the same and all runs the same type of blood through their veins.
Why would an intellectually well achieved and accomplished Physicist who has seen and known the stars and heavens be affected by some little sport minion like Grant Fisher and how he conducts the affairs of his life including the possibility of doping? We have much higher values, principles and morals to delight ourselves with than loose sleep over jealousy and other types of lust including sexual profligacy!
Khamis.. now you are using a different name - you are a loony tune and jealous of the greatest US distance runner of all time.
In fact, Fisher is and always has been clean and therefore just might be the greatest clean distance runner of current time.
Unfortunately for you, either you are a Bot, Khamis or your jealousy of Fisher has the best of you.
Khamis is an RF engineer while I’m a holographic one. Why are you conflating the 2 identities together? I understand physicists speak a certain metaphysical brand of language because we are build and trained that way in space and time but that’s a valuable skill in us that sets us apart from perhaps you and shouldn’t be used to try to identify one physicist from the other. Physicists are all the same and all runs the same type of blood through their veins.
Why would an intellectually well achieved and accomplished Physicist who has seen and known the stars and heavens be affected by some little sport minion like Grant Fisher and how he conducts the affairs of his life including the possibility of doping? We have much higher values, principles and morals to delight ourselves with than loose sleep over jealousy and other types of lust including sexual profligacy!
Khamis is an RF engineer while I’m a holographic one. Why are you conflating the 2 identities together? I understand physicists speak a certain metaphysical brand of language because we are build and trained that way in space and time but that’s a valuable skill in us that sets us apart from perhaps you and shouldn’t be used to try to identify one physicist from the other. Physicists are all the same and all runs the same type of blood through their veins.
Why would an intellectually well achieved and accomplished Physicist who has seen and known the stars and heavens be affected by some little sport minion like Grant Fisher and how he conducts the affairs of his life including the possibility of doping? We have much higher values, principles and morals to delight ourselves with than loose sleep over jealousy and other types of lust including sexual profligacy!
Just as I thought…
Do the world a favor and don’t procreate.
I have better things to dream and hope for than argue with you about Grant or procreation.
Thanks Weldon, I watched fully the podcast and safe to say I would have chosen braziers career come what may and reject Grants 100% of the time because of what I believe is doping in the latter.
The podcast doesn’t make the slightest mention of doping and what not but that’s understandable as a very sensitive topic and the 3 of you are operating in the public domain.
It’s peculiarly different for me, I’m not administering LRC and not working with running magazines, athletes, coaches, schools and companies. I’m also an optical physicist with an exclusive insight and view into the workings of mind, matter, energy and vibration, so I’m able to exercise more refined discretion in saying one is doping over the other.
brazier is the more talented one for sure and had the difficult career he had only because he ran free of drugs. It’s supposed to be difficult and supposed to be riddled with injury, that’s the life of an elite athlete in 2020! This isn’t 1990 or 1980 anymore! Athletes then were far more durable with poorer shoe cushioning technology and track surfaces precisely due to a veritable lack of man made elektramagnetica fields.
Who knows but before brazier became injured he might have got a phone upgrade from iPhone 11 to iphone 12 right? We will never know until we have specific FBI level type of forensic investigation into every nitty gritty aspect of braziers environment that led to his downfall injuries and loss of physiologic and metabolic engine. It’s never only training or running related, never. There is always an toxic environment around it to catalyze it! You can ask RFK! He will tell you so!
With RFK in charge now, let’s hope he can make brazier healthy again!! They gone remove toxic fluoride from water so maybe braizer gonna gain some newfound energy with a toxic load off his body!
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