I thought Hull was suspicious with her 7 second improvement in one year. Bell, who I had never even heard of, and her 12 second improvement is beyond suspicious. Frankly, I think all the women's 1500 medallists are dopers. Also, the Italian and Tsegay.
I wonder how Muir feels. She has been at the top of 1500m for almost a decade and to watch a compatriot break her British Record after a year of runningdoping.
Rethink intimating that Bell isn't whistle clean, because it also potentially suggests that her training group at the M11 Track Club might well be guilty by association.
That training group includes Keely Hodgkinson, who has improved to 1:54. It includes Sarah Healy, who has improved to 3:57. It also includes Lewis Davey, who got a bronze on the 4x400m.
For comparison, Kelly Holmes was 34 when she won the 8/15.
Do any of you defending her genuinely believe that a 4:12 runner from 2023 could hang on to a suicidal pace while her more accomplished countrywoman, Muir, had to drop off the pack and slowly work her way back in—then still have the energy to sprint down the World Road Champion and last year’s World Silver medalist in the closing stages? Do you think that’s clean?
If she was from Kenya, she wouldn’t even be at the Games because she would have been busted long ago. So yeah, as the title suggests, it’s either she’s the most obvious doper of all time OR she’s the most talented 1500m runner to ever exist and she’s gonna run 3:45 by next year… you can choose what to believe.
It's only cheating when you get caught. And it's libellous to claim she is doping. If you did this with a large platform she could sue you and she would easily win.
That's real life. Look at wars. They are mass murder dressed up as self-defence. None of them are caught or put in jail. Nobody complains about the lion that hides in the undergrowth before pouncing. He's cheating isn't he?
The man in the street has the correct answer "Their all on it". In the same way ALL powerful people have blood on their hands. All landowners won it with violence, lies, stealing. Dressed up with grand narratives and enjoyed victory. And now own all that property and land, handed down through generations. In the UK nobody even knows who owns it all. The records are there but you have to pay to find out. That's the real ruling class not all those bozos in Parliament. Just brown nosers of real power.
It's why in the USA the motto is "nice guys finish last".
It's not who you are it's who people think you are.
It's not what you know it's who you know
If a man dies a hero but cheated his whole career you think he will give a hoot? You think Lance Armstrong cares, who only cares because he got caught, and then tried to re-badge his career as the repentant one.
It's an optimal strategy in life, (based on police doing nothing about it), to steal tools out of men's vans. Why work your arse off when you can make the same money he makes in 1 week, with 2 hours effective stealing.
In the end people respect what they think you are. And status is God.
Do any of you defending her genuinely believe that a 4:12 runner from 2023 could hang on to a suicidal pace while her more accomplished countrywoman, Muir, had to drop off the pack and slowly work her way back in—then still have the energy to sprint down the World Road Champion and last year’s World Silver medalist in the closing stages? Do you think that’s clean?
If she was from Kenya, she wouldn’t even be at the Games because she would have been busted long ago. So yeah, as the title suggests, it’s either she’s the most obvious doper of all time OR she’s the most talented 1500m runner to ever exist and she’s gonna run 3:45 by next year… you can choose what to believe.
Optically, it looks off too. Kipyegon, Hull and Welteji all very graceful strides. Bell leaning backwards, doesn’t look particularly fast or smooth yet overhauling the latter two.
Do any of you defending her genuinely believe that a 4:12 runner from 2023 could hang on to a suicidal pace while her more accomplished countrywoman, Muir, had to drop off the pack and slowly work her way back in—then still have the energy to sprint down the World Road Champion and last year’s World Silver medalist in the closing stages? Do you think that’s clean?
If she was from Kenya, she wouldn’t even be at the Games because she would have been busted long ago. So yeah, as the title suggests, it’s either she’s the most obvious doper of all time OR she’s the most talented 1500m runner to ever exist and she’s gonna run 3:45 by next year… you can choose what to believe.
Optically, it looks off too. Kipyegon, Hull and Welteji all very graceful strides. Bell leaning backwards, doesn’t look particularly fast or smooth yet overhauling the latter two.
I agree. Her form doesn't speak of great talent. But then there are quite a few others out there showing the same. I didn't see the optical equivalent of a Rudisha competing in these Games.
Why does no one bring up Bell's 800m? she ran 1.56, times two equals 3.52, and she is endurance trained (duathlon background - a sport I, and presumably most of you as well, know nothing about). Muir has run 1.57 x 2 = 3.54. GDS ran 1.58.7 (whether she was with Andy Young - so Reekie and Muir, or Bowerman) to run 3.56. Frankly, I think Reekie is in the wrong event (understandable when she trained with Muir, much as Bell is with Hodgkinson) as she could get down to 3.50ish with that speed (1.55), and has a poor 400m - unlike Hodgkinson who has clearly been working on it, with NO 1500's to her name since she was a kid. Hull's relatively poor 800m (much like ESP) might be suspicious, but both can run good 3000's - ESP beating Tsegay indoors - Hull now the WR for 2k. Of course Bell ran 2.03 as a teenager and now has the best in the world to train with for that development. I used to think that of El G, when he only ran 1500's (no real 800m to back it up) until he ran the 3000 (7.23) and 2k (4.45) then later 5000's.
I think the Bell/Hodgkinson duo, much like Reekie and Muir, is little different than Hocker and Teare (although it seems like Teare is getting the short end of the stick), or Kessler and Hoppel doing some training together (both have benefited as we saw last week). This goes back to Farah and Rupp as well. I thought the mantra on this board was that the best should train together - some even thinking that ALL the best should do so (which is not practical emotionally - direct competitors would make it difficult, see the ON group under Ritz).
I think you need to read into their stories a bit more closely. Listen to the Citius podcast with Bell in the months leading up to the games. Also, read into Jess's recent training and how that's translated into the current breakout. It's not like either have a father or a coach who have been busted for PED's previously.
Why does no one bring up Bell's 800m? she ran 1.56, times two equals 3.52, and she is endurance trained (duathlon background - a sport I, and presumably most of you as well, know nothing about). Muir has run 1.57 x 2 = 3.54. GDS ran 1.58.7 (whether she was with Andy Young - so Reekie and Muir, or Bowerman) to run 3.56. Frankly, I think Reekie is in the wrong event (understandable when she trained with Muir, much as Bell is with Hodgkinson) as she could get down to 3.50ish with that speed (1.55), and has a poor 400m - unlike Hodgkinson who has clearly been working on it, with NO 1500's to her name since she was a kid. Hull's relatively poor 800m (much like ESP) might be suspicious, but both can run good 3000's - ESP beating Tsegay indoors - Hull now the WR for 2k. Of course Bell ran 2.03 as a teenager and now has the best in the world to train with for that development. I used to think that of El G, when he only ran 1500's (no real 800m to back it up) until he ran the 3000 (7.23) and 2k (4.45) then later 5000's.
I think the Bell/Hodgkinson duo, much like Reekie and Muir, is little different than Hocker and Teare (although it seems like Teare is getting the short end of the stick), or Kessler and Hoppel doing some training together (both have benefited as we saw last week). This goes back to Farah and Rupp as well. I thought the mantra on this board was that the best should train together - some even thinking that ALL the best should do so (which is not practical emotionally - direct competitors would make it difficult, see the ON group under Ritz).
Nothing suggests that being fast over 800 means she should be able to drop at least 14 secs in a year over the 1500 to run 3:52, or a lot of other 1:56 runners would do the same. And it isn't simply aerobic training that enables that or a lot of 800 runners would simply move up.
Why does no one bring up Bell's 800m? she ran 1.56, times two equals 3.52, and she is endurance trained (duathlon background - a sport I, and presumably most of you as well, know nothing about). Muir has run 1.57 x 2 = 3.54. GDS ran 1.58.7 (whether she was with Andy Young - so Reekie and Muir, or Bowerman) to run 3.56. Frankly, I think Reekie is in the wrong event (understandable when she trained with Muir, much as Bell is with Hodgkinson) as she could get down to 3.50ish with that speed (1.55), and has a poor 400m - unlike Hodgkinson who has clearly been working on it, with NO 1500's to her name since she was a kid. Hull's relatively poor 800m (much like ESP) might be suspicious, but both can run good 3000's - ESP beating Tsegay indoors - Hull now the WR for 2k. Of course Bell ran 2.03 as a teenager and now has the best in the world to train with for that development. I used to think that of El G, when he only ran 1500's (no real 800m to back it up) until he ran the 3000 (7.23) and 2k (4.45) then later 5000's.
I think the Bell/Hodgkinson duo, much like Reekie and Muir, is little different than Hocker and Teare (although it seems like Teare is getting the short end of the stick), or Kessler and Hoppel doing some training together (both have benefited as we saw last week). This goes back to Farah and Rupp as well. I thought the mantra on this board was that the best should train together - some even thinking that ALL the best should do so (which is not practical emotionally - direct competitors would make it difficult, see the ON group under Ritz).
You are a little overly focused on 800m speed, and also assuming every athlete can transfer it to the 1500m. Reekie ran the 1500m at Europeans and simply wasn't as good at it, though Mageean shoving her out of the way certainly didn't help.
Also, can we call Bell endurance trained when she only runs 30mpw? I get that she has biked a lot, but an endurance trained 1500m runner triples that mileage. Her 2:03.38 800m comes from when she was 20, not a teenager to be clear. Cole Hocker, who is not a quality over quantity athlete seems to do a decent amount of biking/cross-training along with 60-70mpw, and I'm not sure he'd be considered "endurance trained" like a Jakob.
And yes, she trains with Keely but it's a large group with about a dozen athletes. Sarah Healy, Erin Wallace, and then a host of slower ones.
I think you need to read into their stories a bit more closely. Listen to the Citius podcast with Bell in the months leading up to the games. Also, read into Jess's recent training and how that's translated into the current breakout. It's not like either have a father or a coach who have been busted for PED's previously.
Why don't you take the blinders off and look at history, look at other sports, look at human nature?
Folks seems to be more willing to believe WHAT THEY'RE TOLD instead of what they see with their own eyes processed through what they have experienced in life.
People will absolutely look you in the eye and lie to you. Astute folks know how to fool gullible folks.
Why does no one bring up Bell's 800m? she ran 1.56, times two equals 3.52, and she is endurance trained (duathlon background - a sport I, and presumably most of you as well, know nothing about). Muir has run 1.57 x 2 = 3.54. GDS ran 1.58.7 (whether she was with Andy Young - so Reekie and Muir, or Bowerman) to run 3.56. Frankly, I think Reekie is in the wrong event (understandable when she trained with Muir, much as Bell is with Hodgkinson) as she could get down to 3.50ish with that speed (1.55), and has a poor 400m - unlike Hodgkinson who has clearly been working on it, with NO 1500's to her name since she was a kid. Hull's relatively poor 800m (much like ESP) might be suspicious, but both can run good 3000's - ESP beating Tsegay indoors - Hull now the WR for 2k. Of course Bell ran 2.03 as a teenager and now has the best in the world to train with for that development. I used to think that of El G, when he only ran 1500's (no real 800m to back it up) until he ran the 3000 (7.23) and 2k (4.45) then later 5000's.
I think the Bell/Hodgkinson duo, much like Reekie and Muir, is little different than Hocker and Teare (although it seems like Teare is getting the short end of the stick), or Kessler and Hoppel doing some training together (both have benefited as we saw last week). This goes back to Farah and Rupp as well. I thought the mantra on this board was that the best should train together - some even thinking that ALL the best should do so (which is not practical emotionally - direct competitors would make it difficult, see the ON group under Ritz).
Several folks just ran 1:41 in the Olympic 800 final. Multiplied by 2 that's 3:22. Do we expect any of those folks to drop a 3:22 1500? How about 3:26? 3:30? What is the number that isn't suspicious?
just because why?? she's so nice??? she's so dedicated???? she is our sweet, good, and kind laura, and we just know she wouldn't????
To me Muir is one of those athletes where, if she's doping that just means everyone else is. I feel the same way about Hoppel and Arop in the 800. Again, can't be 100% sure of anyone but I feel much more confident about these athletes than others. Muir has been consistently performing to this standard and is well known. For someone to come along and break her British record in the Olympic final ahead of her after puttering around on a bike and meandering in the 4:10-4:00 range for most of their life is very suspicious.
Also, to address her training group, I don't think it means we automatically assume Keely is up to something if we're suspicious of Bell. During the NOP days, I don't think anyone was as suspicious of Craig Engels or Eric Jenkins as they were someone like Rupp. But you would 100% raise your suspicion if someone joined the group and within a year was suddenly ahead of Rupp at the Olympic 10k. Again, there just isn't a satisfactory explanation at the moment and I won't accept her jr PBs because they're not stratospheric like Athing Mu or Phoebe Gill. This would literally be like if Brandon Miller quit the sport at A&M, took years off and then came back to make the 2032 Olympics in the 1500. Would people trot out that "he ran sub 1:50 in age group track, the talent's always been there!" like that was a reasonable excuse?
Muir has been consistently performing to this standard and is well known. For someone to come along and break her British record in the Olympic final ahead of her after puttering around on a bike and meandering in the 4:10-4:00 range for most of their life is very suspicious.
Excellent point. We also have a metric tonne of past incidences where someone has performed an 'unbelievable' run out of absolutely nowhere (again Bell pb'd a 4:03 in February 24!) and then we've seen a suspension follow shortly after. I'm not saying Bell's a guaranteed doper but I hope they're triple testing her samples.
Do any of you defending her genuinely believe that a 4:12 runner from 2023 could hang on to a suicidal pace while her more accomplished countrywoman, Muir, had to drop off the pack and slowly work her way back in—then still have the energy to sprint down the World Road Champion and last year’s World Silver medalist in the closing stages? Do you think that’s clean?
If she was from Kenya, she wouldn’t even be at the Games because she would have been busted long ago. So yeah, as the title suggests, it’s either she’s the most obvious doper of all time OR she’s the most talented 1500m runner to ever exist and she’s gonna run 3:45 by next year… you can choose what to believe.
She’ll run 3:49 within the next month, so I’ll take option two.