Whiteman makes it sound like you can sit on his shoulder for 1400m and kick. Everyone is trying to get the shoulder position to give themselves a chance but only 1-2 people will find themselves in a position to strike at the end and whoever that is, is not going to be feeling great with 100 to go.
But he does want to be like them when running the 5000? He doesn't lead that from the front because he knows it is not to his advantage.
Ingebrigtsen is running in the style that maximizes his chances to do well, which changes depending upon the length of the race. Wightman and Kerr are doing thing, but they have different tactics because they have different strengths and weaknesses.
Jakob led the few last laps in the WC 2022 5000m despite hot weather and windy conditions. But even more important: He said after the race that this is the right way for him. And since then he has repeated this mantra in multiple interviews. -With him it’s not only about tactics and winning. He wants to win in a dominant fashion, and as a 5000m runner, and not winning on his speed. If one doesn’t understand that the way Jakob wins his races is more important than winning in itself, well, then one hasn’t been listening to what he repeatedly underlines…
Jakob took the lead in that 2022 WC 5000m with roughly 900m left. This is something Mo Farah sometimes did also. You seem like a real fanboy. To me Jakob is just another guy who happens to be good at running. He is no guru, so don’t make him out to be more than he is.
Whiteman makes it sound like you can sit on his shoulder for 1400m and kick. Everyone is trying to get the shoulder position to give themselves a chance but only 1-2 people will find themselves in a position to strike at the end and whoever that is, is not going to be feeling great with 100 to go.
They just don't get him. Jakob talked about this multiple times - he doesn't want a chance to win, he wants to dominate from the front. For him it's either gold or last place, nothing in between. He's very explicit that he in fact DOESN'T want to be in their situation.
I'm the biggest Jakob fan in the world but that's what people without a kick say. They have to say it.
When Jakob runs the 5000, he doesn't dominate from the front. He's more than happy to come from behind there as his kick in that race is very good.
Do you remember how he set his pb and won in Florence in 12:48? Let me remind you.
The Norwegian, who had sagged off the pace and found himself over two seconds back of the lead at 3k (7:44.6 for Cheptegei, 7:46.7 for Ingebrigtsen), rallied over the final mile and outsprinted Olympic bronze medalist Hagos Gebriwhet of Ethiopia down the home straight to win in 12:48.45 — a European record that makes Ingebrigtsen the fastest non-African-born runner of all time (12th-fastest overall). Ingebrigtsen won with a 56.1 final 400 (27.4 final 200).
In the 5000, Jakob may be like Kerr/Wightman in the 1500 - not the best in time trials but incredible in championship races. Jakob doesn't run a lot of DL 5000s so it's hard to say how he is in a TT 5000. Is he best in the world at that? I don't know.
Jakob took the lead in that 2022 WC 5000m with roughly 900m left. This is something Mo Farah sometimes did also. You seem like a real fanboy. To me Jakob is just another guy who happens to be good at running. He is no guru, so don’t make him out to be more than he is.
Jakob isn’t a guru to me at all -I have no problem to point out where his opinion and mine differ in some areas… But maybe he wants to be regarded as a sort of guru, therefore his interesting wordings and interviews. -When it comes to me I just cite what he is saying and point to his doings (how he runs) because some of you claim he has a 5000m strategy and a mindset he clearly hasn’t at all…
You said yourself that Jakob took the lead with roughly 900m left, and that aligns very well with what I have cited: He doesn’t wanna make a sprint finish out of a 5000m, and not even a 3-4-500m kick. -He wants to win on his strength as a 5000m runner, and not on his speed as a 1500m guy, therefore he increased the pace these two last laps before the home straight…
And yeah -I don’t need to make him out to be more than he is. He is clearly interesting enough in himself..!
This is all I've be. Trying to say lol. JI runs to his strengths. And they run to theirs. The more traditional 1500m approach seems superior to me in regards to championship 1500s. The last front runner to win was 2019.
Jakob has both strengths. he runs to the one that gives him best odds. everybody else in the field does exactly the same thing because it is their ONLY option.
what jakob does is he brings the race from having 10+ people who have a chance to maybe 4 or 5.
He may have both strengths but some other runners may have even more of a kick than him. I am basing this off of global championship racing (basically races without pacers and wave lights) so not a huge sample size. But I don't believe in his kick if it comes down to a last lap type of deal.
2019 Timmy gaps the field.
2020 Timmy paces Jakob to the W
2022 indoor: tries to front run and gets out kicked.
2022 Jakob leads and gets out kicked with Wightman coming from behind last 400.
2023 Jakob tries to lead from 800mish out kerr comes from behind the last 400
I don't subscribe to the he was sick thing considering the only time he seems to be sick is when he loses a 1500m.(which also isn't very often) Plus his comments about other 1500m runners, and him being the "pacer". Other competitors could've been sick too honestly. So this is how I have arrived to he conclusion that his kick isn't quite what he believes. If he loses a 3rd 1500 in the same manner then he is going to need to start racing the event like everyone else if he wants to win it. It's nothing like those perfectly paced wave light 1500s.
For the record my samples are global championship 1500s not just races he was sick at. This is coming from someone who missed out on running nationals in college 3 times because I always got sick around/just after regionals. I just don't buy the excuse if you line up.
I love excitement of the diamond league races he runs but those almost literally seem setup for HIM rather than the field at this point. His dominance in the diamond league is insane. But it isn't quite the same as the races I mention.
Whiteman makes it sound like you can sit on his shoulder for 1400m and kick. Everyone is trying to get the shoulder position to give themselves a chance but only 1-2 people will find themselves in a position to strike at the end and whoever that is, is not going to be feeling great with 100 to go.
All of these guys have ample theoretical speed to beat the others at the end. What really matters is who can deploy the speed because they have the lowest lactate levels when the leader hits 150 m to go and who has the shortest distance to cover over the last 150. Based on physiology Jakob is going to have the lowest lactate at a fast pace, but he’s pushing his lactate up by leading and breaking the wind. The guys behind him are likely a bit off Jakob in terms of lactate generation genetics, but they conserve energy by not leading, but they may also expend energy by having to fight for position and travel a bit further during the race, pushing their levels up. In addition when you don’t lead there always uncertainty where exactly you will be positioned at the end and how wide you need to go. No, in the end Jakob has it right in his approach. Lead for much of the race and simply rely on your superior genetics, shortest trip and good position when you get to 150 to go. In Eugene he wasted energy early and in Budapest he was a little ill and Kerr managed a perfect trip. Jakob has a slim margin of error, but he’s running these races as he should and he’s the pick to win every time.
But he does want to be like them when running the 5000? He doesn't lead that from the front because he knows it is not to his advantage.
Ingebrigtsen is running in the style that maximizes his chances to do well, which changes depending upon the length of the race. Wightman and Kerr are doing thing, but they have different tactics because they have different strengths and weaknesses.
Jakob led the few last laps in the WC 2022 5000m despite hot weather and windy conditions. But even more important: He said after the race that this is the right way for him. And since then he has repeated this mantra in multiple interviews. -With him it’s not only about tactics and winning. He wants to win in a dominant fashion, and as a 5000m runner, and not winning on his speed. If one doesn’t understand that the way Jakob wins his races is more important than winning in itself, well, then one hasn’t been listening to what he repeatedly underlines…
Ingebrigtsen runs to win. Sure he would like to win in dominating fashion, but he puts the win first and foremost. I could care less what he says. It is how he runs his races.
The last few laps in a 5000 are 25% of the race. He doesn't take the lead earlier because he would give away too much advantage to his competitors. If he paces a WC field for 8 laps versus a few, his odds of winning go way down. So he doesn't.
Conversely, in the 1500, his best chance of winning is a fast pace. He got that in 2021 from TC, and happily sat on him until the final turn. He looked a lot like Wightman and Kerr in that race. 2022 and 2023 didn't really play out that way for him, so he pushed the pace himself and paid for it.
I mean...is he wrong? I vaguely remember him being incredibly confident 2 years in a row before the 1500m world champs, and he has no gold medals from either of those.
Jakob led the few last laps in the WC 2022 5000m despite hot weather and windy conditions. But even more important: He said after the race that this is the right way for him. And since then he has repeated this mantra in multiple interviews. -With him it’s not only about tactics and winning. He wants to win in a dominant fashion, and as a 5000m runner, and not winning on his speed. If one doesn’t understand that the way Jakob wins his races is more important than winning in itself, well, then one hasn’t been listening to what he repeatedly underlines…
Ingebrigtsen runs to win. Sure he would like to win in dominating fashion, but he puts the win first and foremost. I could care less what he says. It is how he runs his races.
The last few laps in a 5000 are 25% of the race. He doesn't take the lead earlier because he would give away too much advantage to his competitors. If he paces a WC field for 8 laps versus a few, his odds of winning go way down. So he doesn't.
Conversely, in the 1500, his best chance of winning is a fast pace. He got that in 2021 from TC, and happily sat on him until the final turn. He looked a lot like Wightman and Kerr in that race. 2022 and 2023 didn't really play out that way for him, so he pushed the pace himself and paid for it.
He fkd up in both last 1500m WC finals. He is not running smart races. For him to beat these guys he has to run an almost perfect race or hope they waste energy repositioning throughout the race and have no kick left. In Budapest, Jakob initially hesitated to go to the front and that cost him in the end. He is yet to fully commit to running an all out final. He cannot give up a full second of his own time on these guys or he gets sniped. And they will under no circumstances pace him in a final - they are smarter than him in these situations. Tokyo was a fluke because Tim wanted to lock a medal and agreed to pace him... highly unlikely that he will have that kind of race again.
For Kerr or Whightman to say Jakob is not a good championship racer is just absurd. Speaks to their arrogance and insecurity in my opinion. They beat Jakob on the day(s) but he still came a close second and both races were huge upsets, and in the 1500 no less. That's always a high potential upset race. And in both championships, Jakob rallied back against some of the best 5000 fields in recent history to win them both, most recently while sick and against Mo Katir, who was likely doping at the time. To mentally come back from agonizing defeats in back to back championships and still manage a win speaks volumes to Jakob's physical and mental strength, especially at the championship level.
But he does want to be like them when running the 5000? He doesn't lead that from the front because he knows it is not to his advantage.
Ingebrigtsen is running in the style that maximizes his chances to do well, which changes depending upon the length of the race. Wightman and Kerr are doing thing, but they have different tactics because they have different strengths and weaknesses.
Jakob led the few last laps in the WC 2022 5000m despite hot weather and windy conditions. But even more important: He said after the race that this is the right way for him. And since then he has repeated this mantra in multiple interviews. -With him it’s not only about tactics and winning. He wants to win in a dominant fashion, and as a 5000m runner, and not winning on his speed. If one doesn’t understand that the way Jakob wins his races is more important than winning in itself, well, then one hasn’t been listening to what he repeatedly underlines…
You say he wants to win in a dominating fashion but what does that really mean - taking the lead early? Against excellent runners with a faster finish can he hope to win any other way? You are also kidding yourself if you don't think winning is what matters to him. It is why he disparages those who have the gall to actually beat him. You know - "the next guy".
Ingebrigtsen runs to win. Sure he would like to win in dominating fashion, but he puts the win first and foremost. I could care less what he says. It is how he runs his races.
The last few laps in a 5000 are 25% of the race. He doesn't take the lead earlier because he would give away too much advantage to his competitors. If he paces a WC field for 8 laps versus a few, his odds of winning go way down. So he doesn't.
Conversely, in the 1500, his best chance of winning is a fast pace. He got that in 2021 from TC, and happily sat on him until the final turn. He looked a lot like Wightman and Kerr in that race. 2022 and 2023 didn't really play out that way for him, so he pushed the pace himself and paid for it.
I have no problem with what you are saying here -of course he is going for the win also in the 5000m first and foremost. But the thing is that he thinks he can win in a dominate fashion, (f.ex front-running the last 900m) and this mindset will predict his choice of tactics. But if he f.ex is sick another tactic will outdo the first one -he will then conserve as much energy as possible, and try and win by his speedy kick / 1500m speed (like in the 2023 WC 5000m)…
You say he wants to win in a dominating fashion but what does that really mean - taking the lead early? Against excellent runners with a faster finish can he hope to win any other way? You are also kidding yourself if you don't think winning is what matters to him. It is why he disparages those who have the gall to actually beat him. You know - "the next guy".
Based on what Jakob constantly stresses out in interviews, and based on that he f.ex “paced” the first 500m in Oly 1500m 2021, I think he dreams of dominating this event by a solo run all the way. But I also think he as a pragmatist (for now anyways) is pleased when someone like Kisang lead the first lap in a fast time…
When it comes to the 5000m I’m not exactly sure about what he means by winning in a dominate way. But my guesses are that he would like a WR fast pace (if not too hot or windy), and could even contribute early to such a fast pace by leading a lap or two (but only if he considers himself strong enough) -the rest of the dominance thing here I think will be leading the last two laps and winding the pace up in a dominant fashion / alternatively : (if he has upped the pace early to get a fast prestigious time) he could let somebody else lead the last couple of laps just to show he can both lead / dominate early and also be the best kicker… Of course Jakob first and foremost goes for the win, but he also very much wants to show off (if strong enough)…
“In theory, if he goes as hard as he can, he might run 3:26 or 3:27 from the front and we wouldn’t be able to live with that. But the chances of it going wrong are far higher than Josh and I getting burnt off...
Which is exactly what Jakob should do. This championship racing mess is a massive mistake that’s been built into the dna of running, and it doesn’t need to be.
Swimming has the correct culture. Tactical finals DO NOT happen. Records fall, and things generally don’t go wrong because these people have a decade plus of experience “racing a time trial.”
It’s also still invigorating. Look at Jakob v Yared from this year. Jakob’s 2mi. Cheptegei’s 5k.
The Olympics are going to come around and we’ll see some silly dally bulls*** that might allow a slow win. It’s sad!
Run your best race. Are you the fittest? Go for it. Don’t be a coward. Learn how to trial
For Kerr or Whightman to say Jakob is not a good championship racer is just absurd. Speaks to their arrogance and insecurity in my opinion. They beat Jakob on the day(s) but he still came a close second and both races were huge upsets, and in the 1500 no less. That's always a high potential upset race. And in both championships, Jakob rallied back against some of the best 5000 fields in recent history to win them both, most recently while sick and against Mo Katir, who was likely doping at the time. To mentally come back from agonizing defeats in back to back championships and still manage a win speaks volumes to Jakob's physical and mental strength, especially at the championship level.
You miss the point of what Wightman said. He didn't say Jakob isn't a good championship racer; he said he isn't as good as he thinks he is - which is true, because Jakob thinks he should never lose, and especially to "the next guy". But "the next guy" - in the shape of Wightman and Kerr - has shown Jakob can be beaten.
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
You say he wants to win in a dominating fashion but what does that really mean - taking the lead early? Against excellent runners with a faster finish can he hope to win any other way? You are also kidding yourself if you don't think winning is what matters to him. It is why he disparages those who have the gall to actually beat him. You know - "the next guy".
Based on what Jakob constantly stresses out in interviews, and based on that he f.ex “paced” the first 500m in Oly 1500m 2021, I think he dreams of dominating this event by a solo run all the way. But I also think he as a pragmatist (for now anyways) is pleased when someone like Kisang lead the first lap in a fast time…
When it comes to the 5000m I’m not exactly sure about what he means by winning in a dominate way. But my guesses are that he would like a WR fast pace (if not too hot or windy), and could even contribute early to such a fast pace by leading a lap or two (but only if he considers himself strong enough) -the rest of the dominance thing here I think will be leading the last two laps and winding the pace up in a dominant fashion / alternatively : (if he has upped the pace early to get a fast prestigious time) he could let somebody else lead the last couple of laps just to show he can both lead / dominate early and also be the best kicker… Of course Jakob first and foremost goes for the win, but he also very much wants to show off (if strong enough)…
The point of this thread is that Jakob cannot win just any way he wants against good opposition in the 1500, and especially guys with more speed than him. What you think is "dominating" is that he has to move early enough to defuse their superior kick; he cannot afford to simply duke it out with these guys over the last 200 or even the last lap.
This is less of a problem for him in the 5000m because he isn't up against guys who can run 1:43-45 over 800.
I just love Letsrun every time Jakob get discussed. It sounds like Jakob is a horrible runner.
But every runner out there wants to be like him. Why? He gets all the money and the results.
Some track nuts will say it is all about the championship. Well, who made more in 22 and 23. The loser Jakob or the Brits?
When Jakob is running a DL, it is exciting. He delivers every time.
This is what fans and organizers want to see.
Who was the star of Pre23? Jakob.
Did anyone miss the Brits? Would they have added anything to that meet?
Now that running sub 3.30 is so normal that even Americans can do it. It is not certain that is Jakob is not winning, the two Brits will do.
Conclusion: Jakob is like Tom Brady. Yes a lot of people hate him, he does not win every time. But he is the star, makes the $$$ and win most of the times........
Blah blah blah all these people trying to analyze middle distance races don’t understand that anything can happen in a 1500m final. It’s always been somebody we never expected. Did anybody herre seriously expect wightman to win in 2022 or kerr in 2023 after lackluster diamond league performances. If anything I would go with Abel Kipsang for the surprise win this year.
I don’t know why you’ve had so many downvotes, as your post is spot on. I’ll add Rono to Seoul, Vasala in Munich, Centrowitz in Brasil, Cacho in Barcelona, etc
Its really hard to call someone out on their championship racing when they’ve got an Olympic and WC golds, isn’t it?
I just love Letsrun every time Jakob get discussed. It sounds like Jakob is a horrible runner.
But every runner out there wants to be like him. Why? He gets all the money and the results.
Some track nuts will say it is all about the championship. Well, who made more in 22 and 23. The loser Jakob or the Brits?
When Jakob is running a DL, it is exciting. He delivers every time.
This is what fans and organizers want to see.
Who was the star of Pre23? Jakob.
Did anyone miss the Brits? Would they have added anything to that meet?
Now that running sub 3.30 is so normal that even Americans can do it. It is not certain that is Jakob is not winning, the two Brits will do.
Conclusion: Jakob is like Tom Brady. Yes a lot of people hate him, he does not win every time. But he is the star, makes the $ and win most of the times........
It sounds a bit obvious but you also don't get what Wightman said. He doesn't say Jakob isn't a great runner; he says he isn't always as good as he thinks he is in a championship setting. Wightman and Kerr's victories over Jakob in WC finals show that is true, since Jakob thinks he should never lose.