the irony of your "doesn't belong here" argument is in a lot of these shootings the kid is a current student or recent graduate, someone with a beef with that school or its students. the call is coming from within the house and you're worried about granny walkers.
saying the public tax dollar thing is not available begs the question here. you're assuming a conclusion being debated. school i went to had no signage either way at the time. both answers make a "sense."
It's because it's not your school so it's not an entitlement you get. And in looking at the community aspect, what if there are 40 people using the track during school hours when students aren't at the track? It does compromise safety.
Well, for one thing, nobody is talking about 40 people using the track during school hours, we're talking about 1 guy using it off hours. Try actually reading the thread that you've spammed 600 times.
But for the sake of argument, suppose we were. Suppose Nick Symmonds shows up to film a video of 40 guys racing a mile in crocs. Explain to me how this "compromises safety". Who's safety? What do you think is going to happen? Are you worried that someone might pull a hammy? Oh no, I guess nobody should ever run!
What do I not understand? I don't understand why that venue for "easy recreation opportunities" has to be a school (that you're not affiliated with).
The key difference between our arguments is that:
* I believe publicly funded facilities and communities can safely engage and interact with each other assuming you weigh the benefits and risks.
* You don't see the opportunity and value for a publicly funded facility to serve multiple purposes. Or if you do, you overly emphasize safety.
My community likely can not afford to build a new track. We barely have any parks. I believe it is in the public's best interest to have reasonable access to these facilities. In the summer, they leave it open much more, and if you show up on any day, you'll see people from all walks of life using it. We know this can safely and reasonably extended to before and after school hours, and in lots of communities even during school hours. Another example of how this makes no sense. They lock up the track where I live, but no one ever bats an eye if you're on their un-gated grass practice fields.
In regards to safety: * If there are 40 people using a track during school hours, I do understand the issue
* Show me a track anywhere where there's more than a handful of people during school hours using a track. Even at my HS, which was open 24/7, it would be just a few people.
* The danger of someone being in direct communication and close proximity to students is way higher than someone jogging some laps hundreds of meters away from kids.
* It's not weird for adults to be in proximity of children. I can go to the library and be surrounded by children.
As a followup to reading "This is Water," I suggest reading "The Coddling of the American Mind." It's largely about the culture of higher education student bodies in America, but it discusses this overemphasis on "safety" that's prevalent today. I believe you would benefit form reading it.
When it comes to school grounds? There's no overemphasis.... priorities 1-6 at least are all safety. Then all else. If it's no because safety, that all the rationale they need.
let me take this to an nth degree absurdity. someone mentioned D3 tracks being publicly accessible where he went. well at my D3 they were so obsessed with running off the public from any athletic facilities -- in the opposite direction -- that it complicated my access to stuff like the soccer fields AS A SOCCER PLAYER AT THE SCHOOL. i would go out there to practice skill drills or shooting. they would run me -- team co-MVP -- off on supposed general orders not to let anyone out there. or they would run me off for not having ID when the fields were across the street from my dorm and my response to being punted -- which they could watch -- was i go head back into campus. we could only go out there as a seeming group.
so, my personal experience with the heavy security version of this is it ends up restricting and complicating "unusual access" for even the people on such campuses who belong there. and i was literally paying tuition for the privilege of being punted.
It's because it's not your school so it's not an entitlement you get. And in looking at the community aspect, what if there are 40 people using the track during school hours when students aren't at the track? It does compromise safety.
Well, for one thing, nobody is talking about 40 people using the track during school hours, we're talking about 1 guy using it off hours. Try actually reading the thread that you've spammed 600 times.
But for the sake of argument, suppose we were. Suppose Nick Symmonds shows up to film a video of 40 guys racing a mile in crocs. Explain to me how this "compromises safety". Who's safety? What do you think is going to happen? Are you worried that someone might pull a hammy? Oh no, I guess nobody should ever run!
In order for Nick to do this during school hours at a school track, the administration would have to vet and approve Nick for his purposes and would have to have an approved time to be there. He would have to check in with the front desk and likely meet the SRO. You would not have the same clearance because you're not approved by the proper channels.
let me take this to an nth degree absurdity. someone mentioned D3 tracks being publicly accessible where he went. well at my D3 they were so obsessed with running off the public from any athletic facilities -- in the opposite direction -- that it complicated my access to stuff like the soccer fields AS A SOCCER PLAYER AT THE SCHOOL. i would go out there to practice skill drills or shooting. they would run me -- team co-MVP -- off on supposed general orders not to let anyone out there. or they would run me off for not having ID when the fields were across the street from my dorm and my response to being punted -- which they could watch -- was i go head back into campus. we could only go out there as a seeming group.
so, my personal experience with the heavy security version of this is it ends up restricting and complicating "unusual access" for even the people on such campuses who belong there. and i was literally paying tuition for the privilege of being punted.
it was obnoxious.
In Ben Shapiro style, I'll ask..why can't you get an in-person driver license renewal at 7pm?
No really...why can't you?
It's because the hours posted are the hours observed.
the irony of your "public safety" argument is i have seen a recent spate of shootings at HS football games. i wouldn't be surprised if some of it is we have clamped down on the actual buildings. so the threat shifts to when else are students gathered.
thing being, a single guy out there jogging track when the track is empty poses no inherent risk other than whether we call it a trespass, which begs the question. what we are concerned about is kid with gun meets crowd of kids. the scenario doesn't match the risk.
let me take this to an nth degree absurdity. someone mentioned D3 tracks being publicly accessible where he went. well at my D3 they were so obsessed with running off the public from any athletic facilities -- in the opposite direction -- that it complicated my access to stuff like the soccer fields AS A SOCCER PLAYER AT THE SCHOOL. i would go out there to practice skill drills or shooting. they would run me -- team co-MVP -- off on supposed general orders not to let anyone out there. or they would run me off for not having ID when the fields were across the street from my dorm and my response to being punted -- which they could watch -- was i go head back into campus. we could only go out there as a seeming group.
so, my personal experience with the heavy security version of this is it ends up restricting and complicating "unusual access" for even the people on such campuses who belong there. and i was literally paying tuition for the privilege of being punted.
it was obnoxious.
In Ben Shapiro style, I'll ask..why can't you get an in-person driver license renewal at 7pm?
No really...why can't you?
It's because the hours posted are the hours observed.
Rules are there for a reason.
Because the people there qualified to handle the process are not working at those hours. There need not be a track monitor. There could be. Mine's covered in security cameras which is likely good enough.
We're asking, "Why can't we have more access to this big empty area when it's unused?"
And you're saying it's the same as asking, "Why can't a service be provided to me outside of the qualified employees working hours."
the irony of your "public safety" argument is i have seen a recent spate of shootings at HS football games. i wouldn't be surprised if some of it is we have clamped down on the actual buildings. so the threat shifts to when else are students gathered.
thing being, a single guy out there jogging track when the track is empty poses no inherent risk other than whether we call it a trespass, which begs the question. what we are concerned about is kid with gun meets crowd of kids. the scenario doesn't match the risk.
It's not "no inherent risk." He has no reason to be on those school grounds at that time and has no clearance to be there.
I'll go one further... it's no secret that some child predators were once runners. Some still run. No risk? They may not even be allowed at a school.
In Ben Shapiro style, I'll ask..why can't you get an in-person driver license renewal at 7pm?
No really...why can't you?
It's because the hours posted are the hours observed.
Rules are there for a reason.
Because the people there qualified to handle the process are not working at those hours. There need not be a track monitor. There could be. Mine's covered in security cameras which is likely good enough.
We're asking, "Why can't we have more access to this big empty area when it's unused?"
And you're saying it's the same as asking, "Why can't a service be provided to me outside of the qualified employees working hours."
Not the same argument at all.
Well, if that's your argument, the response is far more simplistic:
let me take this to an nth degree absurdity. someone mentioned D3 tracks being publicly accessible where he went. well at my D3 they were so obsessed with running off the public from any athletic facilities -- in the opposite direction -- that it complicated my access to stuff like the soccer fields AS A SOCCER PLAYER AT THE SCHOOL. i would go out there to practice skill drills or shooting. they would run me -- team co-MVP -- off on supposed general orders not to let anyone out there. or they would run me off for not having ID when the fields were across the street from my dorm and my response to being punted -- which they could watch -- was i go head back into campus. we could only go out there as a seeming group.
so, my personal experience with the heavy security version of this is it ends up restricting and complicating "unusual access" for even the people on such campuses who belong there. and i was literally paying tuition for the privilege of being punted.
it was obnoxious.
In Ben Shapiro style, I'll ask..why can't you get an in-person driver license renewal at 7pm?
No really...why can't you?
It's because the hours posted are the hours observed.
Rules are there for a reason.
this is a lame argument for various reasons, as in my area to suit their stupid exclusionary voter ID laws they actually extended hours into the evening in the very way you deny exists.
you also don't seem to get you're begging the question. to me if i don't want adult users interacting with kids i might make it more open after hours, not less.
i also go back to, the real risk is usually a call from within the house. one of the students who "belongs there" and has a right to be there "within the posted hours." as i explained on my previous post, a granny group out there when PE is elsewhere and track isn't practicing poses near zero threat. your real concern is people interacting with people that you don't want, not track usage.
* I believe publicly funded facilities and communities can safely engage and interact with each other assuming you weigh the benefits and risks.
* You don't see the opportunity and value for a publicly funded facility to serve multiple purposes. Or if you do, you overly emphasize safety.
My community likely can not afford to build a new track. We barely have any parks. I believe it is in the public's best interest to have reasonable access to these facilities. In the summer, they leave it open much more, and if you show up on any day, you'll see people from all walks of life using it. We know this can safely and reasonably extended to before and after school hours, and in lots of communities even during school hours. Another example of how this makes no sense. They lock up the track where I live, but no one ever bats an eye if you're on their un-gated grass practice fields.
In regards to safety: * If there are 40 people using a track during school hours, I do understand the issue
* Show me a track anywhere where there's more than a handful of people during school hours using a track. Even at my HS, which was open 24/7, it would be just a few people.
* The danger of someone being in direct communication and close proximity to students is way higher than someone jogging some laps hundreds of meters away from kids.
* It's not weird for adults to be in proximity of children. I can go to the library and be surrounded by children.
As a followup to reading "This is Water," I suggest reading "The Coddling of the American Mind." It's largely about the culture of higher education student bodies in America, but it discusses this overemphasis on "safety" that's prevalent today. I believe you would benefit form reading it.
When it comes to school grounds? There's no overemphasis.... priorities 1-6 at least are all safety. Then all else. If it's no because safety, that all the rationale they need.
In Ben Shapiro style, I'll ask... why are the security concerns not the same for a public library as they are for a school?
No really, why aren't they?
Libraries often have after school programs for kids. I can go in and do whatever I want there. It wouldn't be weird if I was in their general proximity.
Because the people there qualified to handle the process are not working at those hours. There need not be a track monitor. There could be. Mine's covered in security cameras which is likely good enough.
We're asking, "Why can't we have more access to this big empty area when it's unused?"
And you're saying it's the same as asking, "Why can't a service be provided to me outside of the qualified employees working hours."
Not the same argument at all.
Well, if that's your argument, the response is far more simplistic:
"It's not your area to have."
My argument is not about whose area it is. My argument is that there is a fundamental difference between rendering a service and access to a facility.
In Ben Shapiro style, I'll ask..why can't you get an in-person driver license renewal at 7pm?
No really...why can't you?
It's because the hours posted are the hours observed.
Rules are there for a reason.
this is a lame argument for various reasons, as in my area to suit their stupid exclusionary voter ID laws they actually extended hours into the evening in the very way you deny exists.
you also don't seem to get you're begging the question. to me if i don't want adult users interacting with kids i might make it more open after hours, not less.
i also go back to, the real risk is usually a call from within the house. one of the students who "belongs there" and has a right to be there "within the posted hours." as i explained on my previous post, a granny group out there when PE is elsewhere and track isn't practicing poses near zero threat. your real concern is people interacting with people that you don't want, not track usage.
And you're in agreement with a point that assumes all runners are safe people.
Do you realize, that in order to even allow someone (s) to run on a track, that would force the SRO to have to partially patrol that area, which would detract from necessarily immediate behavioral intervention in the school itself?
It's not "no inherent risk." He has no reason to be on those school grounds at that time and has no clearance to be there.
I'll go one further... it's no secret that some child predators were once runners. Some still run. No risk? They may not even be allowed at a school.
I'll go one further. It's no secret that some child predators are humans.
You might as well say that. The track coach at the HS near me was fired for being a perv. So much for the vetting process. Yet I haven't heard of one runner in this community being a perv. Interesting.
When it comes to school grounds? There's no overemphasis.... priorities 1-6 at least are all safety. Then all else. If it's no because safety, that all the rationale they need.
In Ben Shapiro style, I'll ask... why are the security concerns not the same for a public library as they are for a school?
No really, why aren't they?
Libraries often have after school programs for kids. I can go in and do whatever I want there. It wouldn't be weird if I was in their general proximity.
The answer is simple. The school district doesn't monitor the library. Libraries are city and/or county and therefore public. A public school means that any child in the public can attend... it's not public to all people.
It's not "no inherent risk." He has no reason to be on those school grounds at that time and has no clearance to be there.
I'll go one further... it's no secret that some child predators were once runners. Some still run. No risk? They may not even be allowed at a school.
I'll go one further. It's no secret that some child predators are humans.
You might as well say that. The track coach at the HS near me was fired for being a perv. So much for the vetting process. Yet I haven't heard of one runner in this community being a perv. Interesting.
All it takes is one. I'm sure any administrator at any level would sleep better knowing they pre-emptively said no rather than say yes and have to explain to the parent of the child who was molested. It has to be unequivocally no.