I could not disagree more. Watching paced time trials is interesting sometimes, but if every race was a time trial the sport would lose a huge amount of its intrigue. How you can say that men racing mano a mano is not “real” racing is beyond me. You have it backwards if anything.
Edit: Regarding your note on Seb Coe - sure, it’s a nice bonus for his legacy that he got his 3:29, but it’s not being one of 8 men to win Olympic gold and break 3:30 that makes him a hands-down top-3 1500 runner of all time, it’s being the only man to win two Olympic golds in the event.
Completely agree with this take. Track is fundamentally about racing, with all the uncertainty in tactics, skill and strength. Time trials are a different thing entirely--seeing the limits of human capabilities. Both have their place, but Diamond League is about racing and so time trials should be secondary.
Let me try to explain why I (mostly) disagree with you by using the upcoming DM in Silesia as an example: Without pacers this race might be a more open fight mano against mano, with tactics, surprises, positional manoeuvring, kicking ability and so on -a race with maybe a more uncertain outcome than with pacers.. And yes that could be interesting to watch. -My guesses will nevertheless be Jakob Ingebrigtsen as the winner, but in a race with 2.10 first 800m he might of course loose. And if so it would of course be exciting to see what kind of countermeasures he would find for the next race… But I wish to reserve this kind of competitional style for the championships, and here’s the reasons why:
To me records, pb’s and “time trials» are far more important than medals and wins. And I get it that some of you are bored over a single athlete being drafted by pacers to a record, but I myself is not bored at all! And there can also be a false dichotomy between time trail and man against man racing -El Guerrouj broke the mile WR, with pacers, but Ngeny made the race to a man to man fight, as Lagat did when he ran 3.26. And the same is to be said about the two last DM in the 5000m; pacers and time trails (12.40 / 41) but fierce competition..!
If Jakob Ingebrigtsen had a career ending injury a month ago history could have labelled him an “also ran” (of course only relative to the all time greats), because one Olympic gold and one Worlds gold and one (relatively weak) indoor WR simply aren’t enough…! (Especially not judged against potential)…
Jakob Ingebrigtsen is only an example of what I am talking about -and he is now saved; not by his medals or merits, but by one single thing: his two mile run. (The only thing that shows what he really is, ) And he could have been saved by a fast time in the 1500m or the 5000m, but the time trails haven’t been frequent enough or good enough. And the championships have been an obstacle… Every athlete is in the same situation as Ingebrigtsen -tomorrow may be the last running day ever. And one is only «saved» with some hard facts (a time) -a medal is not the same; heck -a lot of posters keep on calling Mo Farah a weak runner. Couldn’t happen if his pb’s in 3,5 and 10000m had been indisputable good..! Therefore I am thrilled to see Kiplimo getting times in the half marathon and eventually in the 5000m (Kejelcha and Aregawi as well..). But we need to see these Africans in a well run 5000m allong with Jakob instead of a championship race that probably will be to slow and hot..!
The problem with the championships is that they are too hot for middle and long distance (a lot of athletes suffer unrightly). But they are fun. But in my eyes not that fun that the concept should transfer to Diamond league as tactical slow races, where the athletes never got their potential out in stellar times! (F.ex the two mile run in Paris -would it really have been more interesting if Jakob ran “slow” together with the rest of the pack and out sprinted them on the homestretch in 8.10..?)
So the strongest competitors for Ingebrigtsen in the 5.000m in Budapest are going to be Chaptegei, Kiplimo, Oscar Chelimo, Aregawi (maybe?), Kejelcha and Krop. Probabily Katir also.
Let me try to explain why I (mostly) disagree with you by using the upcoming DM in Silesia as an example: Without pacers this race might be a more open fight mano against mano, with tactics, surprises, positional manoeuvring, kicking ability and so on -a race with maybe a more uncertain outcome than with pacers.. And yes that could be interesting to watch. -My guesses will nevertheless be Jakob Ingebrigtsen as the winner, but in a race with 2.10 first 800m he might of course loose. And if so it would of course be exciting to see what kind of countermeasures he would find for the next race… But I wish to reserve this kind of competitional style for the championships, and here’s the reasons why:
To me records, pb’s and “time trials» are far more important than medals and wins. And I get it that some of you are bored over a single athlete being drafted by pacers to a record, but I myself is not bored at all! And there can also be a false dichotomy between time trail and man against man racing -El Guerrouj broke the mile WR, with pacers, but Ngeny made the race to a man to man fight, as Lagat did when he ran 3.26. And the same is to be said about the two last DM in the 5000m; pacers and time trails (12.40 / 41) but fierce competition..!
If Jakob Ingebrigtsen had a career ending injury a month ago history could have labelled him an “also ran” (of course only relative to the all time greats), because one Olympic gold and one Worlds gold and one (relatively weak) indoor WR simply aren’t enough…! (Especially not judged against potential)…
Jakob Ingebrigtsen is only an example of what I am talking about -and he is now saved; not by his medals or merits, but by one single thing: his two mile run. (The only thing that shows what he really is, ) And he could have been saved by a fast time in the 1500m or the 5000m, but the time trails haven’t been frequent enough or good enough. And the championships have been an obstacle… Every athlete is in the same situation as Ingebrigtsen -tomorrow may be the last running day ever. And one is only «saved» with some hard facts (a time) -a medal is not the same; heck -a lot of posters keep on calling Mo Farah a weak runner. Couldn’t happen if his pb’s in 3,5 and 10000m had been indisputable good..! Therefore I am thrilled to see Kiplimo getting times in the half marathon and eventually in the 5000m (Kejelcha and Aregawi as well..). But we need to see these Africans in a well run 5000m allong with Jakob instead of a championship race that probably will be to slow and hot..!
The problem with the championships is that they are too hot for middle and long distance (a lot of athletes suffer unrightly). But they are fun. But in my eyes not that fun that the concept should transfer to Diamond league as tactical slow races, where the athletes never got their potential out in stellar times! (F.ex the two mile run in Paris -would it really have been more interesting if Jakob ran “slow” together with the rest of the pack and out sprinted them on the homestretch in 8.10..?)
Your arguments about time trials at diamond leagues seem to rest on two premises about running: (1) it should be exciting to watch, and (2) it should create opportunities for runners to build their legacies or make a name for themselves. And I agree with both, to a certain extent. But my fundamental point is this: those are both secondary to what the sport of track is about. Track is fundamentally about getting people together on the oval and seeing who can cross the finish line first in a given distance.
There are plenty of exciting sports that are also about seeing who can do something the fastest and don't involve man-to-man competition. Think of alpine skiing for instance. Eliud Kipchoge's sub-2 attempts are more akin to this. Still super exciting in its own right, but it's not racing. The combination of pacers, wavelights, and constant WR attempts at diamond league events pushes track to be more like something it wasn't created to be.
One more thing. XC and track are two of the most-participated in sports for US high schoolers. Are they constantly chasing times? No, they're racing each other. What do you think they are more likely to be interested in (if they care about pro running at all), constant WR attempts or the pros racing each other man-to-man--the exact same thing they're doing? Look, I'm all for wavelights and pacing a certain percentage of the time. I just think it should be kept to a few times a year or at special events to keep track what it's always been about.
Well, I don’t buy your perspective at all (“..to keep track what it’s always been about… -people together on the oval…”). But I of course respect your opinion here, at that this brings you joy..!
My perspective is “totally” different: The most satisfying is to build stamina year after year (meaning bettering one’s pb’s in a broad range of running events) -one can of course compete (this is fun and gives experience) but who you beat or not is of little interest. Yes even your pb isn’t that important -the steady bettering is what counts…. And all this is exactly what I think Jakob Ingebrigtsen also feels: 16 years old (after his 3.56.26 mile) he said that what one does as a 16 years old doesn’t matter at all -it’s only a step towards the adult results (that really matters). And as a 17 years old: Of course he didn’t like to “only” win a silver (1500m) and bronze (5000m) in the U20 World Championships (but he did beat Kiplimo and Barega!), but I’m certain he wouldn’t have changed a thing in his training in order to win -his perspective has always been long term…
You mention American high school xc. Well, the little I know about this tells me (but I might of course be wrong) that there’s a huge problem there, and that it’s exactly about the fierce competition man against man, team against team (been told this from Norwegians on scholarships). Because this prioritises short time competition on account on building long term stamina (like Jakob)…
I could choose to be really condescending here, and say something about the long time low niveau in American middle- and distance running (well I haven’t forgotten Webb and Rupp and Jager and Centro and Chelimo and so on, but I think you get what I’m saying), but maybe the problem has been more of a high school / college problem than an elite problem (burn out maybe because of your “people together on the oval”)… But in some lines underneath I choose instead to say something about burn out from my own perspective / experience, because I have my self done even worse stupid short term competition training in my teens than what I have heard about from others, and instead of calling the American high school xc childish I can describe my own childishness:
When I was eleven years old I won the xc championships in my region (approximately one fourth of the country’s population I think). Well, I hadn’t trained at all, not even in other sports and no skiing (little snow in that part of the country). The point here is that my parents forced me to compete in a lot of xc and track races in this wast region, and the neighbouring region and even in the area around the capital some 350 miles away. I hated it, because I wasn’t part of a milieu -my parents drove me to the races against my will (I just wanted to be together with my peers), and I won every race, and I still didn’t train at all… Well -correction- there was one guy I never beat. He lived not far from the capital, and the saying was that he had the (unofficial) age world record (600m: 1.36). -I raced him 3 or 4 times I think, and I don’t remember how close I was, but there was no he beat me every time. So did I get a boost of the competition in general? Sure. But there was this guy, an nobody told me I too could start to train. So I thought I would be inferior the rest of my life. -I was just a confused eleven years old…
Seventeen years old I started to train and compete (after years of inactivity) of my own will. But the coach immediately had me on what he called tempo training, f.ex 6x200m all out (spikes), 4x400m 95% of max, and so on. And I competed in the 4 and 800m with pr in each race, and even a 1500m based on 2-3 months of this training (4.00.5 I think). And a month after that I won my high school’s 5000m by one and a half lap… I trained then 1 year (better training ; a new coach -f.ex 13 km easy long run, 30x200m, 35 sec rest), and competed in the 4/8/1500m with good progression. But that summer (18 years old) I got injured, and didn’t train alternately at all, and the rest of my “career” was from injury to injury (with crazy training in between; everything from 25k fast long run periods to the before mentioned tempo training, without any system at all)and with total passivity in the injury periods… So to the point of this narcissistic rant: I did compete (after your scheme) in between the injury periods, and tried it out, and had a lot of fun and “success”:
1. When my training comrades and rivals came loaded with training into the races (too often) I could very often beat them, because I had been injured and had a lot of lightness in my body, and I had this ability to kick, and psychologically strength…And yes it was fun: One big mouth kept on about how he would beat me (he knew I had been injured), so there came a race (without pacers) where I was in front from start to finish, and he hung on for bare life, but couldn’t go pass me. And in the next race his mouth was even bigger, because he told me he got better speed than me, and that I didn’t stand a chance in a tactical race..Well, I stayed behind, and out kicked him and the rest of the field last 200m -easily… And the National champs came, and I was overweight due to eating disorder in my injury periods ( maybe 20 lbs), and I was to run the first leg of the 4x1500m (my team won), and I out kicked everybody (even one with the best 800m time in the nation that year, and the second best 1500m) despite my struggles even in the first lap… And there was a xc race I did, and even a couple of small sensations +….
2. So it was fun, and I have experienced some of your man to man battle. But nevertheless I don’t think this is what running is about, not even without the injuries and “false lightness”…! Because my training partners did the right thing -they built stone on stone, slowly getting better even if I beat them, and one day they became to good to be beaten even by my stupid injured lightness and psychologically strategies… So I quit in disgrace…
Again look to Jakob Ingebrigtsen: In 2020 he ran his first serious 3000m (against Kiplimo and McSweyn). So was he concerned about the competition, the man to man? -Not at all…Because he knew he wasn’t good enough to have this concern (it was premature to be good in this event in that way) -his concern was to beat the European record instead. And then the pace dropped (500m before finish I think) Jakob went pass Kiplimo to the lead even though he knew this made him vulnerable for loosing. Why he did it? Because he didn’t care if he would loose. He wasn’t there because of the man to man -that has little to do with running! He did it because he went for a fast time and the record. (Which he missed with half a second)…
Doesn’t Jakob care about man to man, and about winning? Of course he does! And of course I as a spectator care! But some of the point is how one is winning -again not my words but Jakob’s -in Worlds 5000m he could have stayed behind to 100m left, and out kicked everybody. He could have speculated in the heat and the wind and made the race into a 1500m. But he didn’t (thank god! And this is also my argument against the man to man -everything can be made into a 300m boring kick party -every distance alike and slow)…
Well, I don’t buy your perspective at all (“..to keep track what it’s always been about… -people together on the oval…”). But I of course respect your opinion here, at that this brings you joy..!
My perspective is “totally” different: The most satisfying is to build stamina year after year (meaning bettering one’s pb’s in a broad range of running events) -one can of course compete (this is fun and gives experience) but who you beat or not is of little interest. Yes even your pb isn’t that important -the steady bettering is what counts…. And all this is exactly what I think Jakob Ingebrigtsen also feels: 16 years old (after his 3.56.26 mile) he said that what one does as a 16 years old doesn’t matter at all -it’s only a step towards the adult results (that really matters). And as a 17 years old: Of course he didn’t like to “only” win a silver (1500m) and bronze (5000m) in the U20 World Championships (but he did beat Kiplimo and Barega!), but I’m certain he wouldn’t have changed a thing in his training in order to win -his perspective has always been long term…
You mention American high school xc. Well, the little I know about this tells me (but I might of course be wrong) that there’s a huge problem there, and that it’s exactly about the fierce competition man against man, team against team (been told this from Norwegians on scholarships). Because this prioritises short time competition on account on building long term stamina (like Jakob)…
I could choose to be really condescending here, and say something about the long time low niveau in American middle- and distance running (well I haven’t forgotten Webb and Rupp and Jager and Centro and Chelimo and so on, but I think you get what I’m saying), but maybe the problem has been more of a high school / college problem than an elite problem (burn out maybe because of your “people together on the oval”)… But in some lines underneath I choose instead to say something about burn out from my own perspective / experience, because I have my self done even worse stupid short term competition training in my teens than what I have heard about from others, and instead of calling the American high school xc childish I can describe my own childishness:
When I was eleven years old I won the xc championships in my region (approximately one fourth of the country’s population I think). Well, I hadn’t trained at all, not even in other sports and no skiing (little snow in that part of the country). The point here is that my parents forced me to compete in a lot of xc and track races in this wast region, and the neighbouring region and even in the area around the capital some 350 miles away. I hated it, because I wasn’t part of a milieu -my parents drove me to the races against my will (I just wanted to be together with my peers), and I won every race, and I still didn’t train at all… Well -correction- there was one guy I never beat. He lived not far from the capital, and the saying was that he had the (unofficial) age world record (600m: 1.36). -I raced him 3 or 4 times I think, and I don’t remember how close I was, but there was no he beat me every time. So did I get a boost of the competition in general? Sure. But there was this guy, an nobody told me I too could start to train. So I thought I would be inferior the rest of my life. -I was just a confused eleven years old…
Seventeen years old I started to train and compete (after years of inactivity) of my own will. But the coach immediately had me on what he called tempo training, f.ex 6x200m all out (spikes), 4x400m 95% of max, and so on. And I competed in the 4 and 800m with pr in each race, and even a 1500m based on 2-3 months of this training (4.00.5 I think). And a month after that I won my high school’s 5000m by one and a half lap… I trained then 1 year (better training ; a new coach -f.ex 13 km easy long run, 30x200m, 35 sec rest), and competed in the 4/8/1500m with good progression. But that summer (18 years old) I got injured, and didn’t train alternately at all, and the rest of my “career” was from injury to injury (with crazy training in between; everything from 25k fast long run periods to the before mentioned tempo training, without any system at all)and with total passivity in the injury periods… So to the point of this narcissistic rant: I did compete (after your scheme) in between the injury periods, and tried it out, and had a lot of fun and “success”:
1. When my training comrades and rivals came loaded with training into the races (too often) I could very often beat them, because I had been injured and had a lot of lightness in my body, and I had this ability to kick, and psychologically strength…And yes it was fun: One big mouth kept on about how he would beat me (he knew I had been injured), so there came a race (without pacers) where I was in front from start to finish, and he hung on for bare life, but couldn’t go pass me. And in the next race his mouth was even bigger, because he told me he got better speed than me, and that I didn’t stand a chance in a tactical race..Well, I stayed behind, and out kicked him and the rest of the field last 200m -easily… And the National champs came, and I was overweight due to eating disorder in my injury periods ( maybe 20 lbs), and I was to run the first leg of the 4x1500m (my team won), and I out kicked everybody (even one with the best 800m time in the nation that year, and the second best 1500m) despite my struggles even in the first lap… And there was a xc race I did, and even a couple of small sensations +….
2. So it was fun, and I have experienced some of your man to man battle. But nevertheless I don’t think this is what running is about, not even without the injuries and “false lightness”…! Because my training partners did the right thing -they built stone on stone, slowly getting better even if I beat them, and one day they became to good to be beaten even by my stupid injured lightness and psychologically strategies… So I quit in disgrace…
Again look to Jakob Ingebrigtsen: In 2020 he ran his first serious 3000m (against Kiplimo and McSweyn). So was he concerned about the competition, the man to man? -Not at all…Because he knew he wasn’t good enough to have this concern (it was premature to be good in this event in that way) -his concern was to beat the European record instead. And then the pace dropped (500m before finish I think) Jakob went pass Kiplimo to the lead even though he knew this made him vulnerable for loosing. Why he did it? Because he didn’t care if he would loose. He wasn’t there because of the man to man -that has little to do with running! He did it because he went for a fast time and the record. (Which he missed with half a second)…
Doesn’t Jakob care about man to man, and about winning? Of course he does! And of course I as a spectator care! But some of the point is how one is winning -again not my words but Jakob’s -in Worlds 5000m he could have stayed behind to 100m left, and out kicked everybody. He could have speculated in the heat and the wind and made the race into a 1500m. But he didn’t (thank god! And this is also my argument against the man to man -everything can be made into a 300m boring kick party -every distance alike and slow)…
Barega ranked 5 in WC 2017 at the age 16 and beat Jakob in the final Doha 2019 and run 12:43:02 in the 5000m aged 17.
Did your book had these notes?
Or you think Jakob is the only reference that exists?
What I mean is that conditions can create heroes from nothing.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Barega ranked 5 in WC 2017 at the age 16 and beat Jakob in the final Doha 2019 and run 12:43:02 in the 5000m aged 17.
Did your book had these notes?
Or you think Jakob is the only reference that exists?
What I mean is that conditions can create heroes from nothing.
Come on; Barega is a stellar runner, and I know all his merits! -Before the U20 (there he just had a bad day) and after. And likewise with Kiplimo! And when I mentioned Jakob beat them both it was a fun fact because they are so good (even was then). And it wasn’t to make a god out of Jakob -he was only third…
I use Jakob Ingebrigtsen as a reference because I know a lot about him (because of interviews, Tv series and so on. And because I speak his language. ) If I had been an Ugandan or Ethiopian I’m sure I would have said a lot about Kiplimo or Barega, and little about Ingebrigtsen…
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
I made some errors in my long post: The xc I won as an eleven years old was of course in the eleven years age group… And the estimate for my region’s part of the population should be lower..
And I don’t know if my point was that clear (my personal outing about my own competitions): That the man to man competition shouldn’t be a short time priority on account of building stamina. Cause I fully appreciate the man to man battle between the ground up elite who has built their base (f.ex a Narve Gilje Nordås this season)…
And my criticism of American middle- / distance «low-level» -well, I have heard about Jim Ryan, and I know about the current names (who are exciting!). But making a point of that little Norway (5 mill population) before Nuguse having two better 1500m runners (from the same family, and even one more close behind), than the best ever American born runner (and now a fourth from the little training group - Narve Gilje Nordås; 3.29.47) is not bragging -it’s to raise the question: Is American high school / college man to man battle on the tracks / xc undermining the long term slow building of stamina and pb’s..?!
I made some errors in my long post: The xc I won as an eleven years old was of course in the eleven years age group… And the estimate for my region’s part of the population should be lower..
And I don’t know if my point was that clear (my personal outing about my own competitions): That the man to man competition shouldn’t be a short time priority on account of building stamina. Cause I fully appreciate the man to man battle between the ground up elite who has built their base (f.ex a Narve Gilje Nordås this season)…
And my criticism of American middle- / distance «low-level» -well, I have heard about Jim Ryan, and I know about the current names (who are exciting!). But making a point of that little Norway (5 mill population) before Nuguse having two better 1500m runners (from the same family, and even one more close behind), than the best ever American born runner (and now a fourth from the little training group - Narve Gilje Nordås; 3.29.47) is not bragging -it’s to raise the question: Is American high school / college man to man battle on the tracks / xc undermining the long term slow building of stamina and pb’s..?!
Yes El Bakkali is basically running almost every steeplechase diamond league's eventi while his main opponent Girma is missing many races. I was wondering if we're going to see him again in DL before Budapest.
Yes El Bakkali is basically running almost every steeplechase diamond league's eventi while his main opponent Girma is missing many races. I was wondering if we're going to see him again in DL before Budapest.
El Bakkali missing some great meetings at the beginning of the season (Florence, Paris) was following a planning according to a claim of his coach a month ago.
Now that Girma has the steeplechase WR he may be picky about his races.
Do you think El Bakkali is still the favourite over Girma in a tactical race? In races with no pacers and light waves such as the World's Championships.
Do you think El Bakkali is still the favourite over Girma in a tactical race? In races with no pacers and light waves such as the World's Championships.
I would be not surprised that El Bakkali is someone of 12:40 level in the 5000m with the pace of trainings he do at high altitude the whole year. Girma is even better.
But the 3000m SC is a distance that rely on physical strength, technic of jumping and the speed, so some variations of the results may happen.
If Chaptegei and Aregawi make a fast paced race i think Jakob won't be able to follow them. They can ran the 5.000 in 12.35-12.40 while Jakob never ever have run that fast on that distance. Never even closely.
Well there is no way those two guys are going out and doing that (running 60.5's from the gun in a world final), BUT, I believe there is one thing they could do which I think could hurt Jakob a lot and that is make the pace fluctuate. I think there are a number of guys in that (potential) race tough enough to put multiple surges down throughout the race which really hurts a guy like Jakob who likes that pace and rhythm consistent and at a comfortable point below his anaerobic threshold. Aregawi is as tough as they come - I think he in particular could drop a 59 in the middle of the race just to f--k with the tempo then back off and do it again.
Well put it this way, even if it's a consistent 13.00 pace for 4000m every single one of those guys not named Jakob are dead to rights in the last 800m.
(sorry I know it's not a Silesia related topic but thought this was an interesting other question)