RIP Norm Macdonald: How Macdonald's Simple-Truth Logic Could Help Solve the Transgender/Intersex Crisis In Women's Sports

EmilieS wrote:

rojo wrote:

“I feel that a basic requirement of being eligible to compete in elite women’s sport is to not have functioning testes.”

That sums up my thoughts perfectly. And I feel that last quote is the perfect way to shut down the advocates of intersex/transgender athletes such as Francine Niyonsaba, Caster Semenya, CeCe Telfer, Andraya Yearwood, etc. as it makes things easy to understand but does so in a way that isn’t mean or judgmental.

But women with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia and PCOS can have the same, or even higher levels of testosterone as some of these women who are not fully sensitive to the testosterone their gonads produce, and that's not a problem?

All the throwing events, combat and team sports will lose a lot of athletes if we ban those athletes too.

Please link to evidence for the claim that "women with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia and PCOS can have the same, or even higher levels of testosterone as" persons with XY androgen insensitivity syndrome. That's a serious request. I have more than a passing interest in this topic, and your claim doesn't fit with what physicians I've asked about this or the published research say. But that might be my failing. So if you have info, please link to it.

My understanding is that XY persons with androgen insensitivity syndrome or AIS - whether complete, partial or mild (CAIS, PAIS or MAIS ) - with their testes intact typically have T levels in the normal male range of 7.7-29.4 nmol/L, and sometimes or even often have T levels that are higher than the normal male range during the mini puberty of infancy and during and and after the longer puberty of adolescence. A paper I linked to earlier on this thread shows that XY persons with CAIS have overall hormone profiles that are not typical for either males or females, but that their T levels specifically are in the normal male range. This is what all the sources I've read say.

Some persons with XY PAIS take supplemental exogenous T in adolescence and adulthood, but this is to promote growth of the penis and spur sperm production in hopes of achieving fertility - it's not because their T is lower than the normal male range, much less in the range that XX people with CAH and PCOS have.

Unfortunately, specific figures about T levels in PAIS are hard to come by, perhaps because PAIS is so variable - and rare. Much more info has been published about the T levels in CAIS, which is also extremely rare but it's a much more clear-cut condition. Research on AIS seems to take it as a given that the T levels in PAIS are similar to CAIS, though to me that seems like a big assumption.

FWIW, a study of 42 adults with XY CAIS who still have their testes published in 2015 found that 32 or 76% had T in the normal male range and 6 or 14.3% had T above the normal male range, meaning more than 90% had T in or above the normal male range. The T levels for those above the normal male levels were 52.1, 46.2, 38.2, 34.5, 32.1 and 30.5 nmol/L. Four of the 42 did have T below the 7.7nmol/L threshold that WA uses as the bottom of the normal male range. However, theT levels of these persons were 6.9, 7.1, 7.1, and 6.2. Those are all levels so much higher than the normal female range of 0.02-1.68 nmol/L that any XX teen girl or woman with T that high would need to be urgently evaluated for a tumor - and she'd probably be extremely ill.

Also, the T of the CAIS persons with the lowest levels in this study was significantly higher than the 5 nmol/L threshold that WA says androgen-sensitive XY DSD athletes like Semenya, Niyonsaba, Wambui, Seyni and now Mboma and Masilingi must lower their T below in order to compete in women's middle distance events.

For some reason, I can't get the link to the full paper to work, but you can access it from the abstract on PubMed:Basal T (20 nmol/l, 6-52 nmol/l) and E2 values (113 pmol/l; 18-257 pmol/l) were found in the usual adult male reference ranges

By contrast, XX adolescent girls and women with congenital medical conditions that cause hyperandrogenism in XX persons with ovaries such as CAH and PCOS have natural T that is elevated above the normal female range of 0.02-1.68 nmol/L, but their T is still usually well below the normal male range. As sources I posted upthread show, most women with PCOS have natural T under or at 5 nmol/L; WA says the upper limit for women with PCOS is 4.8.

Figures showing the T levels of XX adolescents and adults with CAH are hard to come by, or that's what I've found. If you can link to sources saying exactly what they are, I'd appreciate it.

But any XX woman who has T anywhere near the bottom of the male range needs urgent medical attention because she most likely has a life-threatening tumor.

For the record, when the T levels of elite athletes competing in women's international track and field were measured by Bermon et al in 2014, 99% of the athletes, including those with PCOS, were found to have T under 3 nmol/L. 75% of the world's most elite athletes in women's track and field had T under 0.91 nmol/L. At least one had a T level of 0.01.

Though the Bermon study didn't set out to test the hypothesis that elevated levels of natural T is common amongst the world's best female athletes as many people believe, the authors noted that their findings provide strong evidence totally refuting that view. The study authors said that the T levels of the world's most elite international athletes competing in women's track and field are on par with the T levels of sedentary women the same age.

By contrast, the athletes in women's elite international competition who participated in the 2014 Bermon et al study who were known at the time to have XY DSDs - one of whom was Semenya - were found to have T levels of 15.6-29.3 nmol/L, squarely in the middle to the high end of the male range.

As I'm sure you know, WA allows athletes with XY CAIS to compete in ALL women's events without restriction, and their participation in women's athletics isn't the major issue in women's sports nowadays - or really an issue at all, not even with those of us who take a hard line about ring-fencing women's sports for XX female competitors. The contested issue insofar as DSD athletes go is the participation of persons who have testes, male levels of T AND male-typical sensitivity to T. This means partial male sensitivity to T like in PAIS and MAIS and especially full male sensitivity to T as in the handful other XY DSDs that are subject to the current WA regulations. A major concern is XY 5-ARD, the condition that Semenya has. WA says that persons with XY DSDs are 140 times more prevalent in elite international women's athletics than they are in the general population.

I'm really glad you chimed in because this was helpful to read and hear your perspective, and I agree with what you said! I think that if someone born biologically male transitioned to female (blockers, estrogen) before puberty, there should be nothing stopping them from competing with girls. And yes, going through male puberty does have some advantages that are irreversible. I'm also on the same page as you about MTF transgender women competing (even if they went through male puberty) - I agree entirely with your first paragraph. Like seriously, it's just a race or high school track meet. I value inclusivity. Transgender girls should not be competing with boys, and transgender boys should not be competing with girls. Maybe since I'm not a biological female competing as a girl, I shouldn't have a say, but I really don't think it's a big issues. Sports are just a small part of our lives and idk how to word it but I feel like this issue is just becoming a bigger issue than it really is. Where it gets tricky is Olympics, and yeah, then I might have to adjust my position. Thanks for sharing your experience with your times pre and post hormones I'm assuming. Your times both prior and post transition are really awesome! Do you have a favorite distance?

Something I'd add is that my brother who's FTM is hoping to be around your height (both of my parents are 5'9 ish and my dad has a tall brother so we'll see) and might want to take up running someday who knows. I have a big family and the rest of my sisters seem to be on the taller side, so we'll see. I'm 5'9 and take mainly after my dad.

The point you made about height is very true - it is an advantage in many cases. Sure there are tall women, but yes being a 6'6 tall woman does have advantages over the rest of the field...

I wonder what other genetic and congenital features are 160-fold+ enriched in elite track and field athletes?

The elite level of sports is where it gets tricky because people's livelihoods are involved, and I think if an MTF sets a world record or wins an olympic or national event there will always be questions. However, if a transwoman's hormones have been in the normal female range for a sustained period of time, almost all of the advantages are negated. Like I mentioned, you can't change bone structure and height, so there will always be some differences, but there is a lot of fear mongering going on because I genuinely do not believe that transwomen are going to dominate women's sports. The percentage of people who are trans is low to begin with and the percentage of transwomen who are capable of competing at the elite level is exceedingly low. I mean, most very good male distance runners are still not as fast as the top female distance runners.

Anyway, best of luck to your brother! As far as height goes, it is going to depend on a combination of genetics and the age at which he begins transitioning. I was 21 when I started, so I had finished growing several years earlier. I did know two FTMs who were in their late teens (one was 16, the other 17) and I believe that the younger one said he did grow an additional inch or two, but I think most people would need to start even earlier (I would have started transitioning in early adolescence, or at least taken hormone blockers if it had been an option) to see a significant change in height.

Simple truth logic. If you have a penis, you compete as man. If you dont your a female.

Same logic, exact opposite comclusion rojo was going for. The take awaynis this whole exercise is stupid becuase you can get whatever answe you want by choosing how to frame the question.

I don't see the logic in the view that because "most very good male distance runners are still not as fast as the top female distance runners," then female athletes across the board should have to compete with males of all/any abilities. Many people who believe, as I do, that everyone should be able to express themselves as they wish with full bodily autonomy and without fear of discrimination or stigma, still aren't on board with the idea that eligibility for women's sports should be based on gender identity rather than physical sex, and therefore that males who say they "identify as" or "feel like" girls/women should have just as much right to participate in girls' and women's sports as female people do, especially if the males alter their hormone profiles a bit by taking some estrogen and reducing the T their testes make somewhat.

To me, this is like saying that because a lot of middle-aged adults are out of shape and bad at sports yet still feel young at heart, envision themselves as they were in their youth and like to dress and act like they're down with the yoof, then all age divisions in sports should be scrapped so that grownups who so wish can fulfill their dreams of having a second childhood - and get a shot at using their full-grown adult bodies to physically trounce "other kids" in the process.

Also, all the world's records set by the top women in every track & field event except the marathon have been beaten by boys age 14-18:

Males routinely outperform females in running events across all distances by 9-12%.

The % difference in the female and male world records in the 100m, the 200m, the 10,000m and the marathon are 8.67%, 10.07%, 9.77% and 9.26% respectively - which is how it is in all running events. In track & field events involving jumping and throwing - as in most other kinds of sports - the difference between the male and female world records is much larger - 16% in the long jump and 18% in the pole vault.

In some sports the male advantage is more than 50%, and in some specific activities like pitching it's 160%. This is because of a vast range of physical differences between the bodies of adolescent and adult males and females that collectively give males an enormous edge over females in sports.

The claim that when males alter their hormone profiles to attempt to mimic the hormonal status of women for " a sustained period of time, almost all of the [male sports] advantages are negated" is not true. The wide array of characteristics that give adolescent and adult males such a huge advantage over females in sports are not reversed or even significantly diminished when males take T suppressants and exogenous estrogen in an effort to mimic the sex hormone profiles of women. I will post links to the research here later.

Moreover, the few solid, objective studies on the topic show that the majority of males on TGHT even for a "sustained period of time" do not succeed in getting their T - much less their hormones overall - "in the normal female range. " The only way that males can get and keep their T low enough to be in the female range is by having their balls removed - which understandably most males, including nearly all who identify as women nowadays, are loathe to do.

The majority of transgender women who follow the usual approach prescribed in the United States are unable to reliably lower their testosterone levels into the typical female physiologic range with medicine alone.

Only a quarter of transgender women taking a regimen of spironolactone and estrogens were able to lower testosterone levels within the usual female physiologic range. Another quarter could not achieve female levels but remained below the male range virtually all of the time, while one quarter was unable to achieve any significant suppression.

Also, a number of males who've had their testicles surgically removed as old-school "transsexuals" once did but most of the newer generations have not done and never will do, acknowledge that even after orchiectomy it's not true that "almost all of the [male sports] advantages are negated." One is Renee Richards, who successfully sued in the 1970s for the right to play women's professional tennis, an action Richards now thinks was misguided. Because, Richards has noted, so many of the important characteristics that advantage males in sports - such as the ones you acknowledge along with a number of others like much larger hearts and lungs, and thus much greater cardiovascular capacity as well as slower heart rates, much greater upper body strength, male hand size and grip strength, etc - come from developing as male in utero and undergoing the male mini puberties of infancy and adolescence. Once these characteristics are in place, they are set for life. Here's another:

I don't think you read my previous post in which I stated that MTFs who went through male puberty should probably not be allowed to compete in the female division at the professional/olympic level. I do, however, think that MTFs who have been able to get their hormone levels in the normal female range for a sustained period of time (2 years) should be allowed to compete in the female division at the collegiate and recreational levels because at this level, I think that inclusivity is more important. You stated in your post that most MTFs who have not had surgery have difficulty getting their hormone levels in the normal female range. Guess what? CeCe Telfer was not allowed to compete at the Olympic trials in the 400 hurdles because her testosterone levels were too high, so it seems that safeguards are already in place to prevent trans women with high T levels from competing in the women's division.

There is, however, a lot of fearmongering by people who never cared about women's sports, who are now pretending to be the savior of women by bashing MTFs. As an FTM, I can sense the difference between people who are genuinely pointing out the physical advantages that MTFs have in sports because they underwent male puberty, and people who just hate transwomen. Even if MTFs who have undergone gender reassignment surgery, and have had their hormone levels in the normal female range for 2 years, are allowed to compete at the elite level in women's sports (which I have already stated, I am not in favor of) women's sports are not going to be completely overrun by trans women. Why? Because the percentage of people who identify as MTF is exceedingly low, and the percentage of MTFs who are also highly talented at sports is again also low. Obviously, this would cause more issues in some sports than others. In my earlier post, I used myself as an example . I went from being in the 95th percentile of height for women to the 40 percentile for men. I have always been more talented at endurance sports than other sports, but in middle and high school, I was also a very good at basketball, and volleyball. I also qualified for the state track meet one year in the javelin throw (in addition to the mile and 800) and was even fairly good at the shot put despite the fact that I only weighed 135 pounds. I do think I had a height advantage over women in throwing events, which I no longer have. However, in distance running, my times are roughly equivalent for gender pre and post transition (18:16 vs 16:10 for 5k on the roads etc.) June Eastman, who I believe is the only MTF currently competing well at the D1 level, went from 3:50 in the 1500 to 4:24 after transitioning, which again is roughly equivalent.

Brave post, RoJo. Personally, I believe the only way to achieve any kind of resolution to this debate is to merge the Olympics and Paralympics and include "able-bodied" and "able-bodied transgender" as additional categories.