Oops, Mboma may become a problem for IAAF

Armstronglivs wrote:

Karma Police wrote:

How does she produce high T then?

Because she will have testes as well as ovaries.

Sorry to be pedantic, but I don't think it's accurate to say that Mboma or anyone else with a DSD has "testes as well as ovaries," phrasing that suggests two testes and two ovaries, or four gonads in total.

The only DSD in which persons might have a combination of the two kinds of gonads that's named in WA's rule 2.2 is ovotesticular DSD, or OT DSD. OT DSD is also the only one of the DSDs cited in rule 2.2 that can occur in persons with 46,XX sex chromosomes. Therefore, if Mboma and Masilingi actually are XX as Namibian sports officials say they are, then their DSD would have to be OT - not any of the other XY-specific DSDs that athletes like Semenya, Wambui, Niyonsaba and Seyni apparently have.

But persons with OT DSD - no matter what their sex chromosomes - don't have testes and ovaries plural; rather, they have some combination of testicular and ovarian tissues. This might mean one single testis and one single ovary. Or it might mean a single ovary or testis plus a second gonad that's an ovotestis containing a combination of ovarian or testicular tissue. Or it can mean two ovotestes.

Even in OT - which is amongst the rarest of DSDs, estimated to occur in one of every 100,000 births - I don't think there have been any cases reported where an individual was born with both a pair of testes and a pair of ovaries. Or with four gonads of any combination. Or, for that matter, with three gonads of any combination.

Rather, it seems that persons with OT DSD (and other DSDs) customarily have two gonads in total just like the rest of us, although a small minority of people with OT DSD have been born with only one gonad. This holds equally true whether they are 46, XX, have mosaicism or chimerism or are 46, XY.

(Worldwide, 60% of all known persons with OT are XX, 33% have mosaicism or chimerism and 7% are XY. Amongst blacks in sub-Saharan Africa, however, the proportion of persons with OT DSD who are XX appears much higher. In one large South African medical center serving primarily black persons of Zulu ethnicity, 88% of persons with OT DSD were found to be XX. )

"The Genetics of Ovotesticular Disorders of Sex Development," Chapter 7 in the medical textbook Genetic Steroid Disorders, published in 2014, says

The gonadal distribution of OT-DSD can be referred to as unilateral (ovotestis on one side and testis or ovary on the other), bilateral (ovotestis on each side), or lateral (testis on one side and ovary on the other) [2]. The most common form is unilateral, with ovotestis/ovary in 34%, followed by bilateral (ovotestis/ovotestis) in 29%, and lateral (ovary/testis) in 25%. The least frequent is unilateral with ovotestis/testis (12%)

The position of the gonads in patients with OT-DSD corresponds to the amount of testicular tissue present, with a correlation between the degree of gonadal descent and the amount of testicular tissue. About half of the ovotestes are found in an abdominal position (with a quarter inguinal and a quarter labioscrotal), while almost all ovaries (85%) are abdominal and half of the testes are labioscrotal .

Great research.

Thank you.

EuroVisionary wrote:

Williamson wrote:

Of course. Mboma would have been identified at a young age in a country with a more advanced healthcare system. I don't think it is fair to criticize Namibia for its lack of medical resources.

No, if Mboma was American she'd be heralded on here as the next great American sprinter.

She's Namibian so she's a "man" and a cheat. You people are f***ing disgusting.

Yup.

It's all based on an ideal for women that was created by/for white women to advantage a protected status in society.

Read

White Tears/Brown Scars by Ruby Hamad.

TrumpSucks wrote:

You know who sucks? Trump.

That functionally illiterate buffoon sucks big time. That's however another discussion for another day.

congothed wrote:

There is one thing we can be sure of. She is one of the clean athletes at the games

/\

This.

None needs to be done on Athing Mu. Athing is not running other worldly times. You also have evidence of Mu's progression from when she was 10 years old. Come on now. Let's not talk apples and oranges here.

Jerry Maguire wrote:

khcglhc wrote:

What I can say is that I will be watching that 200m final. I am sure that I will not be alone.

Can’t wait to see how much progress she makes in the next race (and over balance of the season). If Thompson doesn’t break the WR, maybe Mboma will. Anyway, until then, she is crushing the WJR.

I actually stopped watching the women 800m after Caster was banned. It was just not very interesting to look at women trying to break 2min. I started again this winter when Mu started to run well. Since then, I only watch the 800m women races where Mu runs. She made it exciting again.

Look at this idiot.

Not sure why I’m an idiot, but sure..,

I watched the women 200m. What a race! Congratulations to Thompson. Mboma had another great race. New WJR. I can’t wait to see how low that WJR will go.

Mu’s race was also wonderful. Her time is 23rd all time. So we are getting back to the Melinte, Quirot, Mutola, Ceplak, Caster days.,, Not quite the Kratochvilova and Olizarenko days yet, but after a couple of down years, the women 800m is an exciting race once again.

Two very good events to look at now.

Fogrunr wrote:

congothed wrote:

There is one thing we can be sure of. She is one of the clean athletes at the games

/\

This.

Given that taking T-shots is banned because of the advantage it provides, having excessive amounts cannot make you clean in any shape or form. Given that excessive amounts are produces by balls, that makes you beyond dirty. A whole other universe of what the hell!

EuroVisionary wrote:

100% If Mboma was American, this wouldn't be a conversation.

Why is this issue only occurring in African countries? With over 1 billion people in China and India why has this never occurred?

Caster Semenya tried the same BS and it didn't work. I can't wait for Mboma to run 20.7 - 20.8 at Worlds for the 200M next year.

To add to my earlier post regarding gonads of persons with OT DSD:

"Ovotestes" when applied to homo sapiens is a broad, umbrella term for all human gonads that contain both ovarian and testicular tissues. Ovotestes in humans are not all one and the same. Far from it.

When the ovotestes of persons with OT DSD are closely examined using samples of tissue extracted during biopsy, or following surgical removal, the makeup and structure of ovotestes have been found to vary considerably. Ovotestes do not necessarily contain equal amounts of both testicular and ovarian tissue, and the tissue varies greatly in the extent to which it is functional or not.

In many individual ovotestes, one kind of tissue predominates. On the other hand, in many ovotestes, neither ovarian tissue nor testicular tissue is found in large quantity; rather, gonadal "stroma" or supporting tissue, or undeveloped precursors of gonadal tissue, predominates.

Moreover, even where ovarian and testicular tissue are present in roughly equal proportions, they will not necessarily be equally functional in terms of hormone production, or in the capacity to generate gametes - if they have the latter capacity at all.

For the record, even amongst the vanishingly rare number of persons born with one ovary and one testis, or with one ovary or testis and one ovotestis, there's never been a single recorded case in history where an individual human being has been able to fulfill the reproductive role of both sexes by generating both ova and sperm.

An examination of gonadal biopsy specimens taken from 111 patients diagnosed with OT DSD in the KwaZulu-Natal province of South Africa from 1984 to 2006 found that the most common pattern in individual ovotestes of the patients seen there was for there to be an "outer mantle" of ovarian tissue covering an inner core fitting one of three distinctly different patterns.

The 111 patients in KZN were found to have been born with a total of 217 gonads between them. (Five were born with only one, which is why the total isn't 222.) Of the 217 gonads, 118 (54.38%) were ovotestes; 59 (27.19 %) were ovaries and 40 (18.4%) were testes.

Based on their "gross appearance," 89% of the 118 ovotestes were categorized as "mixed ovotestes" and 11% were categorized as "bipolar."

Underneath the outer layer of ovarian tissue, the insides of the 89% of the ovotestes categorized as "mixed" turned out to consist of either: 1) compartmentalized sections with a large, main core of testicular tissue in the lower portion (this pattern was found in 56% of all cases of all the gonads described as "mixed ovotestes;") or 2) "gonadal stroma, with scattered foci of separate ovarian and testicular tissue" (44% of gonads categorized as "mixed ovotestes").

The remaining 11% of the ovotestes examined that were categorized as "bipolar" were found to consist of an inner core divided into two separate & distinct compartments of testicular tissue in one pole and ovarian tissue in the other.

https://www.jpedsurg.org/article/S0022-3468(08)00700-8/fulltext

I wouldn't argue with you about numbers of reproductive organs. The point is she has enough male organs to generate male levels of testosterone - or she wouldn't have exceeded the IAAF limits prescribed for the longer events. Only women who dope to the heavens could hope to match what she produces by virtue of that male reproductive characteristic.

Armstronglivs wrote:

I wouldn't argue with you about numbers of reproductive organs. The point is she has enough male organs to generate male levels of testosterone - or she wouldn't have exceeded the IAAF limits prescribed for the longer events. Only women who dope to the heavens could hope to match what she produces by virtue of that male reproductive characteristic.

Yes, we are in agreement on the main point(s). But there is so much misunderstanding out there over the issue of DSDs in sport & more generally, that I felt obliged to clarify.

Just as much of the general public has been hoodwinked into thinking that all the XY DSD athletes with testes, male levels of T & male-typical sensitivity to T who've invaded & cleaned up in women's sports like Semenya are "female DSD athletes" and "women with naturally high testosterone" when they are actually male DSD athletes with testes that make testosterone in amounts entirely normal for their sex, there are some people who believe & claim that human beings can be born with a pair of ovaries & a pair of testes - & all the other reproductive organs of both sexes too.

BuckleUp wrote:

If she was legit XX she would be running the 400 not the 200. Some of you are as gullible as f**k

This

The Namibians are not being open about this. FYI, her minders are white Namibian

NYDCRunner1 wrote:

EuroVisionary wrote:

100% If Mboma was American, this wouldn't be a conversation.

Why is this issue only occurring in African countries? With over 1 billion people in China and India why has this never occurred?

Caster Semenya tried the same BS and it didn't work. I can't wait for Mboma to run 20.7 - 20.8 at Worlds for the 200M next year.

Whaddo you mean, "why has this never occurred" with other countries like China & India? It's definitely - & very famously - happened in India, the country that Santhi Soundarrajan, Dutee Chand and Pinki Pramanik are from.

But unlike the powers-that-be in South African sports and athletics since 2009, & in Namibia today, officials in India don't appear to believe that DSD athletes with testes have a "human right" to compete in women's sports. Neither the Athletics Federation of India nor the Indian Olympics supported Santhi Soundarrajan. When Dutee Chand sued the IAAF, Chand sued the Indian Athletics Federation too. In fact, the IAF was named first in Chand's suit.

It's not clear what Indian officials' stance was on Pramanik. Pramalik, who won a number of national & international Asian titles in the women's 400 & 800m in the mid-2000s, appears to have slipped through the cracks due to competing during a period when Indian testing of athletes for doping was lax. Pramanik was only publicly revealed to be XY after being arrested & jailed on a charge of rape in 2012. The rape charge was not upheld. But during the controversy, Pramanik told the press that whilst competing in elite Indian athletics, Pramanik had regularly been forced to take testosterone injections.

In 2019 after the so-called "Semenya rules" came into effect, Hima Das, who now holds the Indian record in the women's 400m, was "ruled out" of the 2019 World Championships in Doha, supposedly for developing a mysterious back injury, a story no one believed. Up-and-coming Indian sprinter Saritaben Gayakwad also vanished from the sports scene at the same time. Along with Das, Gayakwad has been one of the four Indian runners to win the gold in the women's 4x400 relay at the 2018 Asian Games.

P.T. Usha, long known as the "queen of Indian track & field" & now a prominent coach, has recently said she thinks there are quite a few DSD athletes similar to Mboma & Masilingi in or near the top ranks of Indian female athletics. Usha has publicly said on many platforms that she thinks these athletes should not be allowed in female competition.

Another difference between India and African countries such as South Africa and now Namibia is that whereas the South African press & world press more generally are all in the bag for XY DSD athletes like Semenya to be able to exercise their "human right" to participate in women's sports, prominent voices in the mainstream press in India don't share this view. People in India seem less inclined than to think that entering athletes with testes into women's elite international competition is a good or honorable way for a country to try to obtain international sports gold & glory or to enhance its image in the eyes of the world.

Veteran Indian sports journalist K.P. Mohan, long a staff writer for The Hindu, is responsible for some of the clearest-eyed, most factual reporting on the Semenya saga that I've seen over the years, such as this piece from 2019:

In the wake of the Namibian runners being declared ineligible for the women's 400 in Tokyo, Mohan pointed out on Twitter how misleading - & unfair - it is for mainstream press outlets like the BBC to say that athletes like Mboma are "female athletes" whose "natural testosterone" is unusually high when no adult human females have natural testosterone that high (unless, that is, they are very ill).

On July 10, in a tweet about Mboma and Masilingi Mohan said, "There might be others including those from India who could be in this DSD debate!"

"The testosterone advantage of Mboma over other participants is seen with the naked eye.

"In construction, movement, technique, at the same time as speed and endurance.

"She has the parameters of an 18-year-old boy, at that age my PB was 22.01 and she has done it in 21.97 in Tokyo."

"With progression and improvement in her technique, she will soon drop to 21.00 seconds in 200m and 47.00 seconds in the 400m," Urbas added.

It's necessary to understand why we have the rules we have today to fully understand why these athletes should be categorized as male rather than female.

The IAAF & Olympic squad organised a symposium in January 2010 in Miami, and met again in October 2010.

They knew that sport had continuously lost the battle against genetic males in sport, and repurposed the medical term 'hyperandrogenism', which applies to genetic females who suffer unpleasant or dangerous effects from high testosterone. This term was first announced to the public in April 2011, despite the fact that none of the affected athletes were ill - they had normal functioning testes, albeit that they might have had other hormonal differences unrelated to the primary function of testosterone in their bodies.

The original policy announced made a point of including female-only conditions such as luteoma of pregnancy, as if pregnant athletics suffering from high testosterone presented a fairness issue to women's sport, or as if women with ovarian tumours were somehow winning everything in sport. This was just a sham to get away from society's refusal to acknowledge the basic binary distinction between males and females on the basis of testes vs ovaries and the resulting sexual dimorphism we experience.

Having deliberately chosen to misrepresent the issue, eventually the rules were revised so that now they ONLY apply to:

1. athletes with testes or ovotestes

2. male levels of testosterone

3. testosterone sensitivity

In medical terms any athlete with a DSD should be raised as either male or female following an assessment of their condition. Being raised as male or female does not mean surgery must be performed - only that a gender role is assigned to the baby. This gender assignment medically is done based on factors most notably the effects of testosterone on the brain and body during puberty. Given the World Athletics conditions of male testosterone levels AND a virilizing effect of that testosterone, then a doctor is likely to advise that the baby should be raised as male, given that

1. the testosterone is likely to cause a male gender identity spontaneously, even if raised as female from birth

2. the affected individual will have either male fertility (sperm) or be infertile - they will not have female fertility (eggs)

For someone like Caster Semenya, it's not really clear what 'living as a woman' means - Caster Semenya is married to a woman and appear to adopt the male role in the relationship and likely fathered their two (one still unborn) children.

The World Athletics rules still allows CAIS athletes to compete (such athletes are likely to be taller than normal women) - these athletes, since they do not respond to testosterone at all, typically strongly identify as female. The ONLY affected conditions are those where essentially the delivery team made an error of sex assignment at birth, assigning DSD individuals as female, whereas objectively they should have been assigned as male.

That doesn't mean we have to call these DSD individuals men, but it does mean we should consider the fairness of allowing one individual to compete and banning another with the same condition, simply based on a decision made at birth.

floguy wrote:

I thought the same thing, she is going to win the 200 and it is going to be the story of the rest of the games.

She won!🥇🥳

Oh wait, she didn’t. Guess it isn’t the story for the rest of the games