Elias Ngeny WL 1:43.84 (previous best 1:49)

Harold #1 wrote:

Many fail to realize that there may be 100's of super fast runners in Kenya who don't reach their potential due to issues like poverty ....

+1

Just because you use multiple handles it does not mean everyone does the same.

How about you show where I did that? I'll be waiting.

You are making things up again.

Sebastian Coe was one of my running heroes as I was growing up, and Peter Coe an inspiration later on when I became a coach. I have never implied Seb doped and I never even thought he might have.

You are a pathological liar.

Yes, there is.

Armstronglivs wrote:

6336 wrote:

Maybe because 1:40 is some fantastic time?

Why does no one run sub 1:39? Or sub 1:38? Or sub 1:30?

1.43x is a fantastic time for someone who was a 1.49x runner.

Thank you for adding more evidence to the fact that you are a dishonest man.

You have totally ignored Renato's explanation.

sytms wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

1.43x is a fantastic time for someone who was a 1.49x runner.

Thank you for adding more evidence to the fact that you are a dishonest man.

You have totally ignored Renato's explanation.

I don't accept his explanation. Is that honest enough for you?

Armstronglivs wrote:

No comparison. Coe was a teenage in 1973. To be like Ngeny he would need to make similar improvements in 1980. He didnt.

No, because in 1980 he already has some years of professional training behind him and competed for at least 10 years. What do you know about the training and competitions of Elias Ngeny in the last 10 years?

Armstronglivs wrote:

sytms wrote:

Thank you for adding more evidence to the fact that you are a dishonest man.

You have totally ignored Renato's explanation.

I don't accept his explanation. Is that honest enough for you?

Things would be much better around here if you were always like this.

In any case, what Renato says is unfortunately very much the reality in Kenya.

Coevett is well documented as a liar. You'll have to get used to him trying to make up quotes to attribute to you so that he can attack those instead of what is actually said.

Mr T..... wrote:

You claimed that Cruz going from 1:44.1 (world Junior record) at 19 to 1:41.77 at age 20 was a 'three second improvement' that proves he took drugs. You said this earlier in this thread.

You've come out with that bull about Coe improving his 400m pb over EIGHT YEARS as proof of his supposed drug taking dozens of times. Deano has answered it every time, yet you still repeat it oblivious like a broken record.

There is ignorent doping apologism and their is sinister doping apologism. You fall into both categories and really ought to be banned.

Who has said this about Cruz? Show the post. As far as I know, nobody has made just a single comment here which could be interpreted as Cruz was a doper. If I'm wrong, show the post. You can't? Then climb back in your dark hole and stay there for the rest of the season.

You hope Ngeny gets busted before Tokyo - from all the infamity you have written on this board this is one of the most shameful ones.

Just for your info Coevett: Cruz was 18 when he run 1:44.3 and 21 when he run 1:41.77. But three mistakes in a short sentence probably still is below average for you.

6336 wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

No comparison. Coe was a teenage in 1973. To be like Ngeny he would need to make similar improvements in 1980. He didnt.

No, because in 1980 he already has some years of professional training behind him and competed for at least 10 years. What do you know about the training and competitions of Elias Ngeny in the last 10 years?

Even more ludicrous. You're suggesting that someone with no real background in the sport can come from nowhere and suddenly become world class at 24. Alternatively, if he had been training and competing for 10 years that doesn't explain a massive performance spike at that age.

You are really a donkey. Ngeny was student in the University, and practically didn't train till when finished to study. So, his previous PB were WITHOUT any specific training.

Only this year he started to train with continuity, and also started to compete :

06.02 : 800m in 1'47"68 (PB)

27.02 : 1500m in 3'45"9 (heats)

28.02 : 1500m in 3'44"8 (8th in the final)

12.03 : 800m in 1'48"2 (heats)

12.03 : 800m in 1'46"57 (semi)

27.05 : 800m in 1'48"91 (heats)

28.05 : 800m in 1'47"66 (semi)

29.05 : 800m in 1'43"84

We can have a lot of examples of athletes dramatically improving when they started to train in professional way, in every Country.

For example, how do you condider Clayton Murphy in his jump of quality from 2014 till 2016 ?

1'50"03 in 2014, 1'42"93 and Olympic Bronze in 2016. But if wee go to see his 1500m (3'44"53 in 2014 and 3'36"23 in 2016) we can see a big change in his training, increasing workouts for specific lactic endurance.

Justin Knight ran 3'43"59 in 2019, and 3'33"41 in 2021.

Joss Kerr moved his PB from 2016 to 2019 from 1'51"26 to 1'45"05.

I can give you thousand examples, in every athletic event, of sudden improvement (also at older age than 24) when the athletes started to train in professional way.

And we need to know the what the talent is. Billy Konchellah ran when was 18 the second 400m of his life in the track of Nakuru (dirt track with a lot of holes !) in 45"1 : can you be surprised for his 800m ? Marcello Fiasconaro ran the Italian Record during his first year of athletic activity (he was a rugby player), winning bronze medal in the European Championships with 45"49 in 1971. The following year ran at the beginning of the season his first (and unique) 800m in 1'47"7, then had a stress fracture in one foot, After resting some months, resumed training in October, and in 1973 ran Italian Records in 1'45"2, 1'44"7 and finally, in Italy, the WR of 1'43"7 that (48 years later) still is the National Record.

You don't know really anything about athletics, thinking the behavior of top runnersn is the same you had when you were in College. You are like stupid people going to the doctor and telling him diagnosis and therapy, because wento to read something in Internet.

Really, your position is ridiculous, because you don't have any doubt about your ideas, involving in your suspicions everybody, without looking at 20 cm from your nose.

Thanks a lot for this, Renato.

I think "donkey" designates Armstrong quite well. Let's see if this post might start some rethinking about his positions and his behaviour - but I fear we have to deal here with some really stubborn donkey.

Great post indeed. Thank you Renato.

It's fine if Armstrong and Coevett, and a few others ignore these facts, but this post will remain for future generations and people all over the world to see.

The examples you gave are mostly progressions from teens.

Josh Kerr was 18 in 2016. He only runs a couple of 800m races outdoors each season. How can you compare a 6 second improvement from 18 to 21 with a 6 second improvement for a 22 to 24 year old?

We have examples of athletes in the past making such improvements in their early twenties being busted (Ramzi) or being involved in doping scandals (Aouita). When you factor in all the Kenyan doping busts, you shouldn't be calling people donkeys for being suspicious of this guy.

What an imbecile you are. Earlier in the thread you pointed out he went from 1:44 to 1:41.77 in one year. Now you say it took him 3 years? Perhaps you are like your Kenyan heroes and don't have a concept of time?

For sure he can't show the post which justifies this:

"You claimed that Cruz going from 1:44.1 (world Junior record) at 19 to 1:41.77 at age 20 was a 'three second improvement' that proves he took drugs. You said this earlier in this thread."

Because no such post exists in this thread. Just one of his usual lies.

Cruz has set a WJR of 1:44.3 in 1981 at age 18. In 1983 he still has not run sub 1:44, and in 1984 at age 21 he has run 1:41.77.

Coevett's problems in reading comprehension might explain some of his wrong claims in his endless list. But more important: his pure hate against any African runner.

Man, I've lost all respect for Armstronlivs. I thought he was knowledgeable, now I'm convinced he just regurgitates media guides and statistical pages without understanding the sport. Ugh.

Renato, there is a huge difference between athletes making big performance improvements in their teens to an athlete achieving the same in their mid-twenties, when they have already arrived near their physical peak. At 24 Ngeny has gone from being a B division nobody to world class - because he has only started training properly, you say. It appears an athlete needs no real background in order to be able to do this. I guess if he had trained properly for years he would be another Rudisha.

There is no level of improvement that you don't ascribe to training - even when that improvement has occurred in a sport rife with doping, at a time when there has been less testing and in a runner from a country which has an acknowledged problem with doping amongst its athletes. If you don't see that you are living in an alternate reality - or you are just the typical doping apologist here. Probably the latter, as I cannot see how anyone working with athletes today, especially in Kenya, can be unaware of the scale of the problem.

So if 5-6 seconds jump in the 800m from 1.49x to 1.43x for a physically mature athlete is entirely legit to you, at what point do you question what you are seeing - 7 seconds, 8 seconds? 1.42? 1.41? Never?

I guess it is more convenient for you professionally to turn a blind eye to what is everywhere now in sport.

sytms wrote:

6336 wrote:

Thanks a lot for this, Renato.

I think "donkey" designates Armstrong quite well. Let's see if this post might start some rethinking about his positions and his behaviour - but I fear we have to deal here with some really stubborn donkey.

Great post indeed. Thank you Renato.

It's fine if Armstrong and Coevett, and a few others ignore these facts, but this post will remain for future generations and people all over the world to see.

Unfortunately for Renato, it will. Till the next inevitable Kenyan bust.

I explained what happened in 1998 – 1999 with Kennedy Kimw3etich, as example of what can happen in Kenya.

He was a physical trainer in Army, of course doing a lot of physical activity, but never thinking to run in some competition. He was forced to compete for the first time in his life, for representing is brigade in the Army Championships.

I saw him winning the Army Champs in April with 1’49”, and was impressed by his action.

Wilson Boit Kipketer introduced him to me. I started to coach him, and in two months he started to compete managed by Gianni Demadonna.

Here can find his first professional season (1998).

800m

1:45.1hA PB 3h1 NC Nairobi 4 Jul

1:45.3hA 1 NC Nairobi 4 Jul

1:45.14 PB 2 Vittel Villeneuve d'Ascq 11 Jul

1:45.09 PB 3 Nikaïa Nice 16 Jul

1:43.03 PB (3) 2 LG Stuttgart 19 Jul

1:47.85 8 Herc Monaco 8 Aug

1:46.25 9 WK Zürich 12 Aug

1:47.52 6 Athletissima Lausanne 25 Aug

1:48.04 9 VD Bruxelles 28 Aug

1:45.60 6 Guidobaldi Rieti 30 Aug

1:48.48 1h5 CWG Kuala Lumpur 17 Sep

1:47.12 2s1 CWG Kuala Lumpur 18 Sep

1:48.13 8 CWG Kuala Lumpur 19 Sep

And here can find his second professional season (1999).800m

1:46.51i PB (12) 3 Sparkassen Stuttgart 7 Feb

1:49.40i 3 Brogalan Malmö/A 10 Feb

1:47.91i 3 Flanders Gent 19 Feb

1:49.11i 6 Ricoh Stockholm/G 25 Feb

1:48.11i 1 Volksbanken Sindelfingen 28 Feb

1:48.13 3h5 WC Maebashi 5 Mar

1:50.18i 6s3 WC Maebashi 6 Mar

1:46.36 1 GP Rio de Janeiro 25 Apr

1:44.76 2 GP Doha 13 May

1:47.50 1 Vard Réthimno 28 May

1:45.6hA 1 ArmyC Nairobi 5 Jun

1:46.0hA 1h1 NC Nairobi 24 Jun

1:45.6hA 1s1 NC Nairobi 25 Jun

1:46.0hA 2 NC Nairobi 26 Jun

1:43.98 (10) 3 Bislett Oslo 30 Jun

1:44.13 2 Athletissima Lausanne 2 Jul

1:44.47 5 GGala Roma 7 Jul

2:13.56 (1000m) 2 Nikaia Nice 17 Jul

1:47.84 8 Golden Paris 21 Jul

1:44.31 6 Herculis Monaco 4 Aug

1:45.28 3 ASV Köln 8 Aug

1:44.77 7 WK Zürich 11 Aug

1:48.45 2h4 WC Sevilla 26 Aug

1:45.67 4s2 WC Sevilla 27 Aug

1:46.27 7 WC Sevilla 29 Aug

1:46.30 10 ISTAF Berlin 7 Sep

1:44.96 6 GPF München 11 Sep

1:46.87A 2s1 AAG Johannesburg 15 Sep

1:46.24A 5 AAG Johannesburg 16 Sep

In 2 years, an athlete WITHOUT ANY BACKGROUND ran 2 times under 1'44", 8 times under 1'45", 16 times under 1'46", plus once 1000m in 2'13"56 (still the performance number 6 all-time).

According to your ideas, this athlete didn’t have any background, because officially never competed before.

But, in reality, he had a lot of not specific training, that made him very fit and ready for starting specific training, allowing him to improve dramatically in very short time.

Ngeny finished University in June 2020, and immediately after started to train seriously. During 2020, because of the pandemic, he never compited in 800m (only one race of 1500m for the University, running 3’47”6). So, starting from a 3’47”6 practically without training, he had more than one year for training in professional way (12 sessions per week vs/ 2 session, possibility of good physiotherapic assistance, teammate of top level for training), and of course his improvement was very strong.

You can’t say he improved from 1’49” to 1’43” in one year. If he could have had the opportunity to run with continuity (like happens in Europe and US), and his improvement was about 3” per year through several competitions (for example, 1’47”6 then 1’46”9 then 1’46”2 then, in Europe 1’45”8, this means 3”6 second of improvement from 2019 till 2020 in one year, seeming absolutely natural), and this year could have started with 1’45”2 in March, 1’44”5 in April and finally the current PB, nobody had any reason for being suspicious.

But, unfortunately, Kenya is not UK and is not US, and the situations are not the same.

You can have your ideas, but can’t give the right signification to the REAL examples that I showed you.