Training in racing flats?

jesus, this thread just exploded.

someone wanted to know why i said that orthotics weakened my feet. if they've read anything about barefoot running and why people believe in it, they'd already understand. to make a long story short, the orthotics restrict the natural function of the foot, limit the range of motion, and therefore weaken the muscles and ligaments that would be working if i was walking around barefoot. most shoes do this to a certain extent, orthos are even worse because there are molded to your arch to almost completely stop your arch from collapsing, absorbing shock. about 18 months after wearing orthotics i taught myself to be more of a forefoot running when i had always been a heel runner. i think this helped me somewhat. but i couldn't run too far on the balls of my feet while wearing trainers and orthos. i was, however, able to stay up on my toes when doing workouts in flats. and it was doing workouts in flats that hurt me. why? because after months of base training in orthos i'd throw on flats and my feet and legs would be doing all this stuff they never did before. it only took a couple months of track workouts and races before i would get injured. i got injured when i ran in flats, but it was the orthos that really caused the injury.

running store guy, you sound like you mean well, but i think you should take a good long look at all the info that's being posted here. you can either listen to the experts who just regurgitate everything they've been told or you can really think about biomechanics and what it all means. all the crap about flat feet and poor mechanics and being and efficient runner is exactly that: crap. someone else said that everyone just wants a quick fix. that's so true. instead of fixing the root of the problem that causes injuries (poor running surfaces, muscle weakness, just plain overdoing it) they want a band aid to make things seem better. they want orthotics and motion control shoes. that's like running in a cast. what happens when you take off a cast that you've worn on your leg for a few weaks? your leg is weaker than it was before you put it on. and you need to spend some time building up the strength again. the same thing happens to your feet.

i could go on and on but all the important information is out there. yes, it's the minority opinion that shoes and bad for you. but then again, the simple fact that we exercise regularly put us in the minority already.

This is a great thread. It's encouraged me to do some barefoot running and try to do a lot more in simplistic shoes.

that the lengthy, mostly non technical article you quoted is correct. With or without shoes the manner in which you strike the ground has a large bearing on the result. The angle off 90 degrees and the angular rotation due to pronation and supination are significant. All of these things have a large impact on how you handle the dynamic forces. As a Biomechanical Physicist I disagree with much of what he states. That is the nature of Scientists; we don't always agree. If he were correct the vast majority of runners would be wearing shoes made by all manufacturers using his data and we would have very few injuries.

I can run in any type of shoe, any weight, with or without mechanical corrective devices and never get injured. That just tells you one thing. I am fortunate and as Sheehan used to say I selected my parents well.

The only thing that is important is that you know what works best for you. I don't think there is any one answer.

I've been keeping good track of this thread and find it extremely informative. I actually work part time in a pretty big running store. I had HRE email me his original article that was published in "Marathon and Beyond." Really good stuff. I actually took it into work and the guys at the store LOVED it.

The Store owner has actually met and ran with Lydiard. And has talked with Pirie also. His thoughts, we've got about 80% right and there are a few things missing.

I'll try not to regurgitate what's already been said, but add a few points to the discussion.

It would be difficult for a runner who has spent their entire life running in "beefed up shoes" to convert to what many people are suggesting here: ie shoes that offer NO stability, no cushioning, no medial posting. Your feet are just not ready.

Old time shoes were not made with EVA, but a much more stiffer, rigid material that had a good base and was low to ground through the heel. This offered more stability than EVA just because of the material used.

Lydiard liked a "banana" style sole that almost came in more than what we see heels do now, which hurts us with modern shoes as they don't have the correct heel base for a low to the ground feel. Funny thing with Lydiard is that the guys went for a run when he was in town and Lydiard could barely run as he had such bad knee problems. The owner of the store was like, "Hey Arthur, try putting these insoles in, or just give yourself a little medial support." Lydiard refused and just continued to hobble along.

The vast majority of posters on this website are NOT big runners. HRE considered himself a big runner when he emailed me his article at 5-10 and 180lbs. I'm 5-8 and 165 and I can tell you that I am a skinny runner compared to the vast majority of people buying running shoes. I would hazard a guess that most of the people on this discussion board as thin if not thinner than I am and have a very economical gait. That said, I don't think there is any reason why you should not try training in racing flats.

However, I wouldn't ask the 5-10 240lb. guy that I helped tonight to put on a pair of proton's and have at it. He'd have "major" injuries in no time.

Our store has been around for many, many years and we see a ton of injuries. And yes, we see injuries caused by collegiate level runners training in racing flats. It happens and if you don't think so, then you don't work in an environment where you see enough injured runners.

It's up to each individual runner to find a fit and shoe that is right for them. As a rule of thumb, I shoot for "less is more" when dealing with customers. Putting people in rigid, stable or even very cushioned shoes just creates a crutch. But most runners we see run a majority of their miles on concrete and sure for the 140lb. 6 foot guy, racing flats might work great. But for the 5-8 190lb runner that has never run a lot and has worn standard shoes his whole life, maybe a pair of Teva protons isn't the first thing I'd stick him in.

The more wooded trails and dirt roads you run on, the less you need. My feet need different shoes to stay healthy almost as much as the seasons change. And I haven't missed more than a few days to injuries in 6+ years. However, I like the idea of training in racing flats and will give it a try. But I've still got my good stable trainers that I'll keep around just in case.

Pronation is your body's way of handling the impact of running... Pronation is good, shoes that limit pronation are bad. imho.

How much do you think runners who land on their forefoot 'overpronate'?

Notice that the stability/motion control devices are nearly always located exclusively in the rearfoot. There's a reason for that.

For medially-posted racers, there are the asics DS Racer, the asics gel Magic Racer, the Nike Air Streak, the New Balance RC330, as well as the Brooks Racer ST.

EricG,

Thanks for mentioning the "classicshoes" website. I just ordered a pair of the Ontisuke 81s. I do some of my runs in a pair of Ontisuka (well, we called them Tigers) Explorers which are from the same era and I do fine in them, though they're a bit heavier than I'd prefer.

To "Nobody" - if everything that you reported was the "golden rule" then why is nearly every elite runner in the US running in training shoes? Why is it that a true running company hasn't discovered this and marketed it to its potential? I haven't heard of a Bob Kennedy, or a Meb, or a Culpepper, etc. etc. come out and say they are running in racing flats now, so I don't think you should talk down to me like I don't know anything about running or shoes.

Also, tell me how running in a racing flat is going to take care of my Plantar Fasciatis (I know I butcherd that).

from "Shu Guru"

"How much do you think runners who land on their forefoot 'overpronate'?

Notice that the stability/motion control devices are nearly always located exclusively in the rearfoot. There's a reason for that."

I am not really sure what the point of these few sentences were?????? I don't think that forefoot strikers need a lot of stability. Like I stated before, a neutral gait can get away with a lot less.

[quote]running store wrote:

To "Nobody" - if everything that you reported was the "golden rule" then why is nearly every elite runner in the US running in training shoes? Why is it that a true running company hasn't discovered this and marketed it to its potential? I haven't heard of a Bob Kennedy, or a Meb, or a Culpepper, etc. etc. come out and say they are running in racing flats now, so I don't think you should talk down to me like I don't know anything about running or shoes.

Also, tell me how running in a racing flat is going to take care of my Plantar Fasciatis (I know I butcherd that).

Ah, but the elite JAPANESE runners almost all train in racers, and they do more miles and run faster than most Americans. I'd imagine that the shoe companies would discourage any of their paid runners from saying that they train in anything other than the trainers the companies are pushing. Essentially, MOST of the counter arguments to the "racers are better" theory that I've seen come from people like yourself who are connected with the business of selling running shoes, and an elite athlete who's under contract to a shoe company falls into that category.

I got rid of plantar fascitis problems when I switched to racers and have had no recurrences as long as I stay away from medial posts.

A big shoe with a high heel WILL lead to achilles injury if left alone. The big heel shortens and tightens the calf muscle which is a direct cause of achilles injuries. Too many shoes try to limit pronation so much that people forget that your foot has a natural range of pronation that it needs in order to successfully distribute the force when running. If you limit your natural foot pronation then the force going up your knee and your hip will be greater. The pronating foot allows the force to spread out and be absorbed over time instead of being absorbed all at once.

If you are catching a baseball what happens? Do you just put your arms out and catch it without moving your body or your arms? If you do that the impact force will be felt more directly on your hands and it will "sting". Now if you catch that same ball but as you catch it bring your hands in toward your body and/or step back as you catch it what happens? The force is absorbed over time and the "sting" is much less. These same basic principles of motion are involved when running as well. That's why the foot pronates.

Another principle...a muscle can produce more force when stretched slightly before contracting. A lower heel puts more stretch on your calf muscle allowing it to produce more force while running. When you jump for height do you just stand straight and propel yourself up? Nope, you bend down, which puts a stretch on your calf, as well as your quad, then you spring up.

Shoe stores only care for one thing...selling shoes. Of course they are going to say everyone needs stability. It sells more expensive shoes. A stability shoe can limit the natural pronation of your foot, and that is a severely bad thing.

Any runner around 150lbs or lower would be fine running in flats unless they have some severe pronation problems. If you overpronate across two lanes of traffic then you probably need the Beast. If you weigh more than 150lbs then you probably need the Beast. Of course the two are usually related as bigger runners tend to overpronate. Thing is about 75% of runners are not running for competitive reasons and do weigh over 150lbs. My advice isn't for them. It's only for the other 25%.

Alan

A big shoe with a high heel WILL lead to achilles injury if left alone

Careful with your absolutes. I've run in big shoes with high heels. No achilles injury from them. A heel does not "shorten" a muscle. It might not allow it to fully stretch every stride, but it does no shorten the muscle.

Any runner around 150lbs or lower would be fine running in flats unless they have some severe pronation problems. If you overpronate across two lanes of traffic then you probably need the Beast. If you weigh more than 150lbs then you probably need the Beast.

Where did you come up with this guideline exactly? Did you do some sort of a study on runners or did you just make it up. It seems everyone on this thread is throwing around these numbers ("90% of people would be better off running barefoot", etc) without anything to back them up besides philosophical ramblings such as "think about it, how does your foot normally work blah blah blah."

That's great analysis and everything and I'm all for training in racers if it works for you. But if you're going to base these pronouncements on how the body works "naturally" don't leave out all considerations. Call me a skeptic but somehow I don't think that the human foot was "naturally" designed to carry us for 100+ mile weeks, month after month. Nor do I think it was "naturally" designed to run on pavement (some of us in urban areas don't have a lot of choice.)

For point of reference: I'm six feet tall. Been running and competing for 20 years. I have a very neutral gait. I land mid-to-forefoot in my stride and am very smooth. Over my adult life my weight has ranged from 139 to 160. I've tried training in flats at either end of that extreme. If I could run on trails a lot it was fine. But on the roads, it just beats the crap out of my joints. I still do 30% of my milage in flats. But after a hard workout for a morning run, I'll take my Air Pegs anyday. The all flats, all the time thing is nice in theory but reality frequently gets in the way of it.

running store wrote:

Again, I am not trying to attack anyone or anyone's opinion, I am only using what I have been told from working in a shoe store.

Get a life.

What is that suppose to mean? Get a life? Good comeback when someone is trying to learn more about running. Try to come up with something a little better.Lets compare PRs Dunes Runner

running store wrote:

Again, I am not trying to attack anyone or anyone's opinion, I am only using what I have been told from working in a shoe store.

Get a life.[/quote]

running store, no need to bother. dunes_runner is widely acknowledged as the bad joke of this board. And that's saying something.

Sorry about the absolutes, but I had an achilles problem and it went away once I began running in flats. Over time it will shorten the muscle because it's not allowed to stretch as much during the stride. That is one of the reasons why runners have tight calves. 150lb is just pulled out of the air. Seemed like a reasonable number since most thin competitive runners are under 150lb. Simply put, if you're thin, you don't need as much of a shoe. Of course the human foot was designed to sustain that much force. Pre-historic humans walked and ran around all the time for hours searching for and killing food. Some theorize that pre-history humans would search in a 20 mile round trip a day. Walking around and running on pavement is really the only reason why we need shoes in the first place. At first running in flats your feet, especially balls of the feet, may be sore. Give it a couple weeks and you'll feel fine. Also, taller runners may have a problem with running in flats. I'll assume you're over 6'0' given your weight. Taller runners with longer legs will produce more force with each stride (longer lever) so it may be difficult for them to train in flats. This also may be the reason we see a lot of Japanese runners train in flats since Asians as a whole tend to be on the short side.

Alan

Although I am not sold on it yet, I think I'm going to give it a try. #1 there have been a lot of good points on this topic. #2 I let my coach to coach myself so there is noone to blame except myself for my performance #3 If it works for me I'll at least pass along the info to our customers...although the guys I work with think that training in flats in completely insane. #4 I have had plantar fasciatis for what seems like forever so I'll try anything that might help it.

...plus working at the store I get shoes at cost so it is not that big of a loss if it doesn't seem to work.

A couple of questions? You guys still getting the same number of miles out of your shoes? It would seem to compress quicker to me. Do you race in the same shoe that you train in for road races?

thanks to MOST people for explaining and not arguing (this is excluding "nobody" and "dunes runner"), I think people that try this should report the progress over time.

I know a 100% CURE for pf.I can demonstrate exactly what causes pf.And since you are such a thoughtful even handed fellow who is most of all interested in finding the truth I am going to share it with you.

i honestly don't know if it's true, but one of the things lydiard said was "nobody knew what plantar fasciatis was until americans started making running shoes." he's been around long enough to know if that's the case. i am a lydiard fan, but i don't think his word is the gospel. just something to think about.

runningart2004 wrote:

Sorry about the absolutes, but I had an achilles problem and it went away once I began running in flats. 150lb is just pulled out of the air. Seemed like a reasonable number since most thin competitive runners are under 150lb.

Alan

Fair enough. I am 6 feet tall so perhaps that has something to do with it. And I do run on pavement most of the time. FWIW, in the years that I have been training, I have had weeks where I've done up to 50 of my 110+ weekly miles in lighter flats (e.g. Nike Air Triax TC(+)) but I always feel it the day afterwards.

It would appear that my feet can adapt only so far. If I am ever able to do more mileage than that in flats I certainly will give it a shot -- God knows I've got enough unused racing flats stored to last me for several years. But so far I still need heavier more cushioned shoes for some days.