Famed ultramarathon star Kilian Jornet debuts on the road.... Only runs 29:59 10k

Tin foil wrote:

He has a well known conflict with the Spanish federation. Also, he's flirted with Catalonian separatism in the past, which probably didn't help.

He's faced and beaten the same guys who race there at other races. He's tested often because of his skimo racing.

Without a World title he can't be called the greatest.

Francois DHaene, The French winner of many classic ultra trail races is 6 foot four and 165 pounds unusual physique in ultra running by his build. He does not look fast at all I would not think he could run faster than 230 for a marathon but maybe Sage could correct me on this?

S. Canaday wrote:

Anyway, obviously Kilian is world class at mountain-ultra-trail running.

Which is down there with being world class at gum boOt throwing, cherry pit-spitting, wife carrying, etc, etc.

WGAF wrote:

S. Canaday wrote:

Anyway, obviously Kilian is world class at mountain-ultra-trail running.

Which is down there with being world class at gum boOt throwing, cherry pit-spitting, wife carrying, etc, etc.

This may have been true 20-30 years ago. It is still not as popular as marathon running, but there is definitely a lot more people practicing it than most T&F events, for example. It used to be niche, but now most races sell out months in advance and have lotteries and entry criteria that aren't easy to achieve (try to get in UTMB, for example). The field is usually limited because of the nature of the trails, rather than the number of potential participants. The amount of money from sponsorships has also grown exponentially in the last years.

he's not wearing cheaterflys

It's funny how the ultra-haters don't realize their own contradiction: they fault Walmsley or Kilian for not being able to hang in with the front of the pack in traditional road distances, as if it were just a matter of general fitness instead of years of specific work. You can't just switch sports and expect to be at the top. It's not "all distance running", don't be so thick, people.

Kilian and Walmsley are among the best ever at their respective best terrains and distances. That carries over a range of race distances and surfaces... Until it doesn't anymore. You don't expect the best miler to the best marathoner.

S. Canaday wrote: See my YouTube video

Lmao

S. Canaday wrote:

And to the other poster "Tin foil": Did I ever say Kilian was "overrated"? I don't think so. See my YouTube video.

Will I admit some of his workout claims (or claims of what exactly happened on Everest) are fishy? Yes I will. But I also know his race results in the MUT realm and know a lot of these courses/events. I'm a data/numbers guy. I like to see data on Strava.

I wasn't replying to you, otherwise I'd have quoted the part of your speech I was answering to. It's a common practice here to reply to the last post in order to participate in a thread. The boards don't have the best interface in the world.

That said, Sage, where do you get the balls to insinuate other runners' achievements are fishy or a result of doping? You have lost all credibility with your repetitive and cowardly accusations, your over-analyzing and under-performing, and, honestly, your total lack of self-awareness.

Tin foil wrote:

It's funny how the ultra-haters don't realize their own contradiction: they fault Walmsley or Kilian for not being able to hang in with the front of the pack in traditional road distances, as if it were just a matter of general fitness instead of years of specific work. You can't just switch sports and expect to be at the top. It's not "all distance running", don't be so thick, people.

Kilian and Walmsley are among the best ever at their respective best terrains and distances. That carries over a range of race distances and surfaces... Until it doesn't anymore. You don't expect the best miler to the best marathoner.

They like to ignore those simple facts. It gets in the way of their hate.

Similar to how Sage likes to ignore the mental component of ultra running, particularly at the 100 mile distance where he has been less than successful. But sure, it all comes down to how to hydrate and eat, and carry some extra weight. Thats whats keeping the elite roadsters from becoming ultra stars in hundos. Just need to figure out go up some hills and eat some food.

Hey Sage,

It’s Sean VH.

What I think runners often don’t realize is how important running economy is to running fast on flat terrain. Coming into running from another endurance sports this is very obvious. While aerobic capacity is certainly important, economy plays a much bigger role than it does in other endurance sports (other than swimming I suppose). I have run with several Professional Nordic Skiers and Ski Mountaineering athletes who are absolute monsters when running/hiking up steep terrain, yet they can barely break 18 in a 5K. As the terrain becomes steeper and more variable running economy begins to matter less.

A great example of this in the US is John Gaston, the best ski mountaineering athlete in the US and a very talented mountain biker. John did some vertical ks a few years back and was able to stay within a minute of Joe Gray, yet John would get lapped by Joe in a 10k. This is just one example but there are plenty of others out there.

While elite Road/track runners do all have very strong aerobic engines, as they enter into extreme terrain they will be relying on their aerobic capacity more and their running economy less.

Killian sort of discusses this in his recent podcast with Mario Fraoli, saying that he feels like running flat is easy aerobically but very hard on the legs.

One last note is that everyone seems to forget that Killian is a dual sport athlete. He does not run much or at all for 6 months of the year, which makes his running results rather surprising in my view. His accomplishments in ski mountaineering should not be overlooked. Running down technical terrain , while difficult, is nothing compared to railing difficult lines in variable conditions on skis that weigh about as much as a pair of bulky trainers.

I was there at that event in Flagstaff. Would say Gray literally jogged that race as he was doubling the next day so the example isn't good. Gray laps Gaston in 10k and wins by maybe 3 mins but I would say because both guys are strong in mountain that we would expect about the same gap in a VK. Gray maybe in the 29-30 range for VK while Gaston maybe 34 to 35 range. No big difference really. If you take a non trail guy and a trail guy and put them head to head in a vk the trail guy wins 99 percent of the time due to how specific a vk is. Poles make a difference too. Gaston had poles in Flag and Gray didn't. Gaston is a stud in skimo so im sure it helped a ton as we saw him and Gray pull away from us early on the steepest section

Tin foil wrote:

It's funny how the ultra-haters don't realize their own contradiction: they fault Walmsley or Kilian for not being able to hang in with the front of the pack in traditional road distances, as if it were just a matter of general fitness instead of years of specific work. You can't just switch sports and expect to be at the top. It's not "all distance running", don't be so thick, people.

Kilian and Walmsley are among the best ever at their respective best terrains and distances. That carries over a range of race distances and surfaces... Until it doesn't anymore. You don't expect the best miler to the best marathoner.

It's not controversial that runners who were not good enough to make a living doing "conventional road distances" switched to trail races to make a living. I love trial running. I'm a fan of ultra's. But I don't get all twisted up when people correctly say that these guys could not compete in "conventional road distances". The first one to admit this would be Jim Walmsley. To pretend that only those runners who weren't fast enough to race "conventional road distances" are somehow going to inherently be better trail runners is stupid. Fast runners are going to be fast. Does Jim Walmsley have some special genetic trait that lets him run faster in the mountains because he wasn't fast enough on the road? No, but some people may still be better at running mountains then others for a variety of reasons. Jim has put a hell of a lot of miles into training to run mountains. If a 2:04 marathon runner put in the same amount of miles training in the mountains could he beat Jim? I'd say very likely he would.

There is no need for people to "pick a side" for every issue and angrily hate on the "other side". There is just no actual side in this debate. Fast distance runners are fast and very likely can transfer that over and be fast on any surface. However, will some people be better in the mountains even though they weren't faster on the roads as it suits them? Yup. Could Jim have been a top road runner? Nope. Could Kilian? Maybe if he started training in high school, we just don't know. We can however safely say at this point that he will never be a top road runner.

S. Canaday wrote:

But to clarify - When I say a "guy like Kipchoge" I basically mean "any sub 2:08 marathoner". Maybe I should have just said an "elite road marathoner at the Olympic podium level”

T-shirt wrote:

A guy like like Kipchoge. Lol

Let’s take possibly the greatest runner of all time and see if he’s good at running. Why are we comparing 1% of the 1%.. Kipchoge is the exception. The sad thing is, even then it’s not even a guarantee he could beat him. Although most would believe that to be the case, myself included. If the race was on anything remotely technical Kipchoge couldn’t hold his jock strap.

These sub 2:08 Olympic level marathoners you speak of drop out of a race if fly lands on them wrong or somebody farts too loud. Zero chance they make it a 100 miles on anything remotely technical. One slight twinge of discomfort and they’re out.

Francois (who beat Kilian quite a bit at UTMB) is for sure a pretty tall guy. Pretty good a skimo too. I've hung out with him a bit (mainly after races like Transvulcania where he was like 5th or 7th I believe and finished behind Luis Alberto, Kilian and myself in that race). I don't know his exact height and weight, but I'd guess he probably is around 6'3". I'm not sure if he weighs 165 lbs, as he is pretty lean. The guy is really really good at using trekking poles and moving efficiently on courses like UTMB. I also think his marathon PR was around 2:30 (but it wasn't done on a flat course and it wasn't a big event that he really trained for). I'd guess he probably could run at least 2:25-2:28. And like I said earlier, I still think a guy with "only 2:25 marathon Speed" can still win the UTMB. Very often they might beat the 2:15 marathoner actually.

Ghost1 wrote:

Francois DHaene, The French winner of many classic ultra trail races is 6 foot four and 165 pounds unusual physique in ultra running by his build. He does not look fast at all I would not think he could run faster than 230 for a marathon but maybe Sage could correct me on this?

Hey Sean Great post and I appreciate the Skimo perspective! Totally agree! Like I mentioned earlier (IMO) it's all about "Variable Running Economy" so efficiency and relative efficiency (be that powerhiking up a mountain at 30% grade, technical downhills) or running on a flat road/track. People like to throw out big Vo2max numbers (like Kilian or Matt Carpenter) and point to them being "around 90" while in fact that is meaningless if the Running Economy/efficiency isn't there. Matt never broke 2:19 for the marathon or 30:00 for 10km I believe? A guy like Frank Shorter "only" had a Vo2max of around 70...but we all know he ran a pretty good 10km and marathon! So yes, it's all about the efficiency /Running Economy and how that changes with hills/technical trails (or pulling out a higher velocity/pace at 90-100% of Vo2max on a flat road/track).

I don't know why you say you 'think' a 2.25 guy can still win UTMB when the vast majority of guys that have won UTMB are 2.25 or slower speed. And that they 'might' beat the 2.15 marathoner when they almost exclusively do (you're a 2.15 marathoner, and with vast amounts of mut running experience to boot, are you not?).

And regarding 'variable' running economy as opposed to just running economy. I'm not sure what you mean by this but if you put such an emphasis on pure running economy on being the single most important and unique attribute to being able to be a marathon monster on flats, surely, by the same measure, 'variable' running economy + high VO2 are the winning attributes for serious mountain running courses from SZ upwards. This 'might' explain why Kilian can change through all the gears better and more efficiently in mountain running than perhaps one dimensional marathon runners who might have superior flat speed? People always put it on his downhill skills but he isn't unique in his downhill skills and not where he always wins his races. He doesn't have the downhill record at pikes peak and he set his SZ record thanks to the uphill and flats last year...

"Variable running economy" is a meaningless expression Sage keeps repeating as a form of branding. I guess he means good general running economy over different terrain conditions.

Re: "Tin Foil" (why don't you post under your own actual name if you even are the same person?!)

lol, why would i used "variable running economy" as a branding term?! If I wanted to do that I'd use my tagline "Any Surface Any Distance" instead ! C'mon think a little here. Running Economy is an exercise science term. Yes, you got it right though...it literally means having good Running Economy over conditions that change....be it running up/down hills on technical trails in mud/rocks or even on a flat road track. I don't know how to explain it in more simple terms (except maybe to say the word "Efficiency"). But there are a lot of Variables.

To the next poster "Alavisca": Well UTMB is more competitive in general these days. So back to Kilian...who has already won UTMB: Do you not think Kilian can at least run close to 2:20 now in the marathon?

Say Kilian trains for a road marathon and runs 2:18. Then wins UTMB. Now you've got sub 2:20 guys winning UTMB. But then again a 2:12 marathon guy might enter and win (or lose to Francois who is most likely more of a 2:25ish type of guy). We could even say that perhaps it is a liability to be a super fast marathon guy and enter a race like UTMB as often the guys with marathon PRs over 2:20 have been "pure mountain guys" that focus on 100-milers in the mountains (probably more the trend with Euro runners and certainly not top US ultra runners). But perhaps it would be because guys who run sub 2:15 marathons (Max King etc) have traditionally focused most of their live on sub-ultra events and the track/roads and have optimized their shorter distance PRs to more of their true potential. It also be you generally excel and are focused on events that genetically suit your strengths (or speeds) more...but then we get into a whole "Nature Vs Nurture" debate!

As far as the Running Economy goes. Yes, in general if one has a really high Vo2max then they have more "wiggle room" because they don't have to be super efficient with their speed. Running Economy takes into account form mechanics as well as heart and lung adaptations and blood/energy flow. Velocity at Lactate Threshold matters, as well as other fuel utilization (glycogen to fat ratios for example). A 28-min 10km guy with a Vo2max of 80 (even with worse Running Economy than a 30:00 min 10km guy whose Vo2max is 72) in theory can run a 2:18 marathon much easier. But that is just measuring Running Economy on a flat marathon course and at 2:18 marathon pace. At 10km pace their Economy numbers would probably change quite a bit. So that is one variable..with the running velocity.

Another variable is the terrain. We're picking at "n=1" samples here when you are trying to cite just me (2:16:52 marathon PR by the way on an uncertified IAAF course..but I did run 2:18 at the Trials in '12) or just Kilian's one best downhill at Sierre-Zinal or Pikes Peak. As I mentioned earlier "n=1" stories are horrible data points and not good evidence to show general trends. Like I said: "sample sample size"...which is a common thing in MUT running because it's a pretty small niche part of distance running...

With past UTMB winners: Many have not run competitive road marathons or focused on that exclusively probably. So yeah, their PRs might technically be over 2:25, but that doesn't mean a lot can run closer to 2:20 or even faster. My HOKA teammate Tim Tollefson has been 3rd their twice and his PR is 2:18. David Laney was 3rd there a number of years ago and I believe he's run under 14 for 5km and maybe 2:17?

With longer races (above 1-2 hours), Vo2max isn't going to matter as much anyway. Running Economy is mainly the name of the game. Of course that can suffer with sheer muscle fatigue (cramps/dehydration/running out of glycogen etc) that will destroy their Economy. So that is another variable.

and FYI Sierre-Zinal is a net uphill race. The only really big downhill (steep) happens in the last 2-3km. It is a little technical there but mainly steep with some roots/rocks and slippery dirt. While, it generally trends downhill the last 10-miles it is a pretty smooth (non-technical trail). Much like the Pikes Peak downhill after Barr Camp. It's like a dirt road at times and the % grade downhill is only like 5-10% in a lot of spots. So yes Kilian probably isn't the best at those types of downhills since they really aren't that steep and technical. Just like he is obviously not the best at a flat 10km road race...but 29:59 (especially going out in 14:35 for the first half) is pretty darn good and shows enough "Variable Running Economy" (or we can use say "Range")...some of which he undoubtably trained for and almost got hurt doing running on his treadmill and doing 400m repeats and other "speed" this year. (or we can just say "Range").

But yeah, I think it is a little fishy that he says he did a "Sub 30-min VKand then ran a sub 30-min 10km in the same workout" in practice (or that he did 2 x 10km in around 30:00-min and sub 30-min in the same workout) but those workouts aren't actually posted on Strava? If I did a monster workout (that was better than my race performance in an actual road race) I'd be proud to post about it on Strava..with actual GPS data and HR data!

He ONLY ran a 29:59? Geez....