nonequals wrote:
1101 wrote:
As much as everyone (including myself) despises the incompetent, amoral Trump, I'm not sure that I buy into that narrative. I think that the truth is more about basic human nature and thus is perhaps even more disturbing.
People lie. All the time. People in power lie to provide cover for bad decisions and bad outcomes. That's just the way it is. And people not in power repeat the lies of those in power for their own selfish reasons.
Speaking truth to power is hard. For this reason it is also very rare. And by speaking truth to power I do not mean a bunch of nobodies on LRC blasting Trump from the safety (and irrelevance) of their keyboard. I am talking about those whose job (or more than just their job) depends on staying in the good graces of those in power who are spouting the lies.
There is no way that those on the ground did not know that the Afghan security forces were a farce. But that message got filtered out going up the chain of command by a snowballing sequence of lies, coverups, do-as-your-tolds, etc. Probably some at the top knew the truth. But most likely it was not openly talked about. And at the very top nobody stopped a strategy session to stand up and say, "Can we stop all this bullsh!t and deal with reality here?"
The article I posted earlier gives a snapshot of that. Check out what the captain says about his experience in Iraq.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/served-afghanistan-us-marine-twice-100000389.htmlIn the interest of time, for now I'll address just the "institutional" aspect of your post. With all due respect, it seems to lack an appreciation of the very wide and deep experience our federal government has with AFG by now. 20 years is a long time. The mid and senior levels of the U.S. military (including intelligence), non-military intelligence, our diplomatic corps, etc., etc. are absolutely chock-full of LOTS of folks with LOTS of experience in Afghanistan. Some of them may not be smart, might be (far) too ambitious/careerist, too dishonest, etc., etc. But they truly have "Been there, done that," often many times. So they're not ever close to utterly dependent on what any given person or briefer is telling them about AFG at any given moment. And in the defense of many, it's not even close to all about "lying." In many, many cases it's about being hopeful that SO much effort and goodwill (and indeed, billions) could create functioning state - however naive or ignorant that might appear.
That Marine Captain's view is certainly worth something. But tens or hundreds of thousands of people with as much or more AFG experience might not agree with him. In the end, of course, it's about the quality of the argument.
FYI, I served in the military for about 30 years, and did 3 tours in AFG. All of us should be plenty modest about whether or not we have the answer.
Lastly, more broadly, even if we deluded ourselves and/or misled others for far too long about our ability to build AFG, it does not necessarily follow that we should have pulled out. We could have stayed there for reasons (e.g., counter-terrorism) having nothing to do with establishing a sustainable AFG government/military. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Biden endorsed back when he was VP. But that seems to have morphed into "Get out entirely."
To see all of that blood, sweat, tears (and indeed, billions) UTTERLY gone in the matter of weeks is profoundly sad.
Also in the interest of time:
1) I respect the thoughts expressed in your post. I may not agree on all counts but it was a good post.
2) Thank you for your service. You have undoubtedly earned the thanks of all Americans.
3) While I agree that seeing "blood, sweat, tears and hundreds of billions of dollars go up in smoke" is profoundly sad I would caution against that fact coloring any judgement as to what the best course of action was more recently and going forward. All that blood, sweat and tears are sunk costs.
I may be wrong but I believe getting the F out was indeed the right thing to do - as it has been for the last 15 or more years. We should not be in the business of occupying other countries indefinitely. That is only an opinion but I believe that it is an opinion shared by the vast majority of Americans on both sides of the aisle.