50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Thanks AMKelly. The race was actually a whole lot of fun once I got loosened up and settled into finisher mode. I grew up in Houston and have run this race 12 times( or so), so I got to see friends along the way and look at the old haunts as we ran. So many memories from our younger days. Good luck with the training and the achilles. Deep tissue massage finally got me past my achilles problems. It hurt, but it worked.

Old Walker, thanks for posting that. I had checked results on Sunday, and saw that no M60-64 finishers were close to sub-3. So, I was curious how it had played out.

Any chance you'll have another go at it? Soon? A sub-3 at 60 is a pretty special feat, and the fitness seems to be there for you.

Last night I was looking at other marathon results, including 2017 NYC, where only two M60-64 runners broke 3:00. One American and one Brit.

Allen1959, I don't know if I can mount another attempt this year. It is tempting, but the time it takes demands a lot of flexibility from the family and the business. And this hamstring problem may need some real attention. It pulled back in September and took six weeks before I could run again. And it was never really 100%. So. I guess I will just see how it heals and if I can avoid losing all my fitness.

As you can tell, I really have no idea what I want to do next. Too soon, I suppose.

But! I am happy that the time I ran was fairly easy under the circumstances and that bodes well for the future. If I take out the time spent at porta-johns waiting for my brother, my time is 3:09 and change, which sounds pretty good for the effort expended. Always the optimist :-)

Anyhow, onward and upward!

And, to be fair to all those other old guys at New York and etc., Houston has got to be the easiest legal marathon around. Except perhaps for all that concrete.

You did well old walker. My single greatest reason to not run marathons, even though it is likely my best event, is time commitment. Also, as you eluded to, when things do not go entirely as planned, months of training can show less than optimal result. For me as I age, I also contemplate what is the best approach to continue to enjoy the sport. I don’t have an answer, only hunches.

Igy

nicely done. good job of making lemonade out of the lemons your hamstring dealt out. One of my favorite marathons was my slowest, in which I ran with one of my brothers and had the other two ahead and behind. Much more memorable experience than a some of the later and faster ones.

Dave

On the subject of sub-3 at 60, Old Walker's experience really demonstrates just how elusive a goal it can be. It age-grades to a 2:27 equivalent. That's especially daunting for me, with only a 2:40 lifetime PR.

But, 20 months out from my goal race, I am looking back at the training prior to that lifetime PR. Was a sub-2:30 possible as an "open" runner back in the day? What would it have required? What can I do differently now?

Low overall mileage and lackof consistency, I think, were the main weakness. After high school I had run very minimally for three years before jumping back into the sport as a DIII walk-on in March of senior year. Here are the 21 months prior to my "open" PR, starting with that March of 1981:

Month -- Average weekly mileage

Mar -- 62

Apr -- 46

May -- injured

June -- injured

July -- 38

Aug -- 42

Sep -- 40 -- Marathon 3:15

Oct -- 38 -- Marathon 2:52

Nov -- 35

Dec -- 28

Jan -- 25

Feb -- 27

Mar -- 32

Apr -- 38

May -- 42 -- Marathon 3:05

Jun -- 50

July -- 49

Aug -- 47

Sep -- 29 -- Marathon 2:47

Oct -- 52 -- Marathon 2:45

Nov -- 49 -- Marathon 2:40

Besides the mileage and consistency issues, the lack of longevity was a factor -- I was only 23 with just 15 months of marathoning experience. I had logged only one training run longer than 18 miles. If I had continued into my mid- and late-20s, I think 2:30ish potential may have been there.

This is actually encouraging as I work on a strategy to stay healthy and attempt sustained mileage over the coming months. Also encouraging is that last October's effort, at an age graded "2:36", was a step in the right direction.

OK, enough of this nonsense ... back to the weights, exercises and elliptical ...

62 years old

Prostate cancer

knee surgery

colectomy

100 miles for the first 15 days this year. Signed up to volunteer at 4 of my club races so far. I have already found a 16 foot Stanley tape measurer, 2 pliers and a small adjustable wrench on my workouts for the year ha....I like finding tools better than finding money.

41st year of being a runner...

Allen1959, those are great times for the mileage. If we only knew then what we know now. it's amazing what we could do on so little running back when we were young.

My first Houston Marathon was 1979. I decided to run it when we got out of school for Christmas break, leaving a bit less than a month to train. I was a gymnast at the time, with just a bit of running on the side.

I ran the same 10 mile loop every day at 6:xx minute pace with 20 at the same pace on Sundays. But since I was doing all this on concrete in my spiffy new Nike Elites, my plantar fascia were a wreck and I missed about every third day. But, "What, me worry?"

A two day taper seemed just about right.

The plan was to run 6 minute pace since I knew what that felt like, but the first mile passed in 5:35 and the second even faster. So I thinks to myself, "Self, that's time in the bank!" Ignorance is such bliss.

I don't remember a great deal about the race, but one thing really stands out. You know how the last song you hear when you get out of the car can get stuck in your head? "YMCA." It was brutal. It was really distracting. So I started listening for something... ANYTHING to replace it in my mind. Finally, at about 15 miles, someone had a radio on and "The Gambler" by Kenny Rogers was playing. It did the trick and I was saved. I will always have a soft spot for that song.

I got tired and slowed a bit, but finished in 2:29.54 for 14th after a bold, foolish sprint to the finish. My legs set up like concrete as soon as I stopped and I don't think they bent for a week. I found myself in a cold, dark parking garage with the other runners and just leaned against a concrete pillar a balled my eyes out for a couple of minutes. Then my dad appeared from nowhere and all was well.

A few years later it was discovered that the course we had used was pretty short. Maybe 100 yards per mile. And I went on to run several minutes faster in other races. But that was an emotional high water mark for my running. I put so little into training and got so much out on race day.

Ah, to be young again.

Holy cow, some of the folks on this thread are fast and used to be even faster!

A very different take on a first marathon:

Mine was San Francisco in 1983 at age 25. I was 20-30 pounds overweight, badly undertrained and totally clueless. I was running 30-40 miles per week but had slogged through a couple of "long" runs, maybe 16-20 miles, never measured accurately. But I had two things going for me: I was young and I had a lot of respect for the distance. I was just going to try to run the whole way without stopping.

And it worked perfectly. I started off jogging and spent the first half trying to force myself to slow down. It didn't start getting hard until about 20 miles, and even then it wasn't hitting the wall, just a steadily increasing fatigue. I ended up running almost even splits and finished in 3:47, which back in those days of faster times put me pretty close to the middle of the pack. I was mighty sore for the week following the race, but the race itself was really a good experience.

The following year, better trained and full of confidence, I set out to try to beat my Ph.D. advisor, who usually ran in the low 3:30's. I was ahead of him for about 15-16 miles, but I knew I was in trouble when he blew past me with words of encouragement. I crashed badly and hobbled to a miserable finish. It was still a PR in 3:42, but I was not happy. It was about five years before I attempted a marathon again.

That's a great story. Ahhh ... "first marathon" memories. I had the advantage of four years of high school and one collegiate season under my belt. Still, I had no idea what to expect on marathon day.

There was a Canadian postal strike, and my entry form didn't arrive in time (Montreal). I ran it anyway, as a bandit. I wanted to minimize my impact on the event, so I hand-carried my own water. No Gatorade or gels in those days.

In contrast to your rabbit start, I decided to run VERY conservatively. Eight-minute miles. I reached halfway right on target, at 1:45.

At that point, the pace seemed so slow, and the ordeal seemed to be dragging on so long. I decided to start accelerating, and by the last few miles I was running sub-6's. It was somewhat exhilarating to be passing what seemed like hundreds of people each mile. The average pace for the second half was 6:50/mile.

But after that closing effort, I essentially collapsed after veering off at the finish. It was a long while before I could stand, let alone attempt to walk. Then I faced the ordeal of figuring how to take public transportation back to wherever I parked my car. And not knowing French didn't help!

All the while, I swore I would never run another. And I didn't ... until four weeks later. That was the old Skylon Marathon, where I ran "only" an 8-minute negative split, after starting cautiously again with a friend from my college track team.

Another 23 marathons brings me to present day. Just one more, and I will be done!

amkelley wrote:

It was about five years before I attempted a marathon again.

And, as I recall, you came back VERY strong. National class. Olympic Trials. I think the "most improved" award may well be yours! By contrast, my "first to best" improvement was less than 35 minutes.

We don't know about Old Walker. He only says "faster than 2:29" ...

amkelley wrote:

We don't know about Old Walker. He only says "faster than 2:29" ...

I improved a lot from first to fastest, but it was mostly because the first was pretty slow. My first marathon was the 1975 Galveston Marathon. I ran on mediocre miler's training and one 20 mile run. A friend from college was doing it and so I tagged along. (That is a common story, isn't it?) Anyhow, he ran 2:29 and I ran 3:06.

Two memories....

First, when the gun went off, I started like a miler and found myself 30 yards out front and pulling away. But I put on the breaks and ran pretty steadily and within myself all the way, though they had to carry me off the shuttle bus afterward.

Second was meeting Hal Higdon at the post-race banquet and hearing him speak. He was at the top of his game at that point and told lots of stories about Bill Rodgers and Frank Shorter and all that and really got me into the lore of running in a way that I hadn't been before.

My fastest time was at Houston (1983?) when I ran 2:25.04. I think that's right. It's been a while. I thought I'd never forget PR's but lately I'm forgetting all sorts of things. I went through the half in 1:08 high and walked and jogged the last four miles. I ran a lot of marathons like that :-(

Allen1959... I just reread your post and am amazed that you were able to do all those marathons one after the other like that. As was said, youth is good!

Old Walker wrote:

[quote]amkelley wrote:

My fastest time was at Houston (1983?) when I ran 2:25.04. I think that's right. It's been a while. I thought I'd never forget PR's but lately I'm forgetting all sorts of things. I went through the half in 1:08 high and walked and jogged the last four miles. I ran a lot of marathons like that :-(

OldWalker I can relate to that final few miles struggle...sans GU and other ergogenic aids 'back in the day' it was inevitable that we were going to hit the wall eventually...it was simply a function of "when"

my first was a DNF in 1971...second, AKA first finish was 3:36 in 1972...eventually, 8 years later 2:25...and then a bunch of other 2:20 somethings (26, 27, 28...and a bunch in the 2:30s)

did one in 2012...as my first ever was Philly in '72 went back and did it again 40 years later...HOPING to do it (or some other one) in 2022 at age 66...just to have a full 50 year spread between first last....definitely absolute positively probably my very last

The things us ancient runners do to stay "amused" ;}

best

MF

Old Walker wrote:

My first Houston Marathon was 1979. ...

I got tired and slowed a bit, but finished in 2:29.54 for 14th ...

Ha! I had read that as your "first marathon." I oddly feel better that your actual debut marathon was a little bit slower than that ... :)

Well finally I might have most of you folks covered. I sneak ahead of Amkelly in the improvement award.

Nov. 1979 1st marathon 4.09 .

Sept. 1980 3.01.

Oct. 1980 2.55.

May 1981 2.51.

Nov. 1981. 2.44.

April. 1984. 2.43.

Training for my first marathon.

I was working on a thoroughbred horse stud. 13 day fortnight 5 am. until whenever.

The driveway was 800 metres long and had feed troughs along the fenceline on either side. Twice a day the foreman would drive slowly down in the Land Rover ute loaded with buckets of feed. I would run alongside grabbing the buckets and tipping them into the troughs. At the end of the driveway he turned around and I did the same on the other side. I did this in work boots.

We did a similar thing through the hilly back paddocks as well.

Every second Sunday on my day off I would do a 10 km run.

If I finished work early (didn't happen often) I would run 5 km.

A month before the marathon I ran a 17 km event with 18000 others. I ran about 70 minutes.

Marathon day was hot (90s F) and I took off at around 3 hr pace. I don't think I need to describe what happened in the 2d half. I am sure you can imagine.

Fortunately the stud farm went belly up a few months later and I picked up work cleaning at a hospital. I suddenly had spare time (and 3 x the income) and my running improved dramatically.

A funny little side note.

My boss at the studfarm was a terrible person in many ways.

Not too long before the business went bust she asked the foreman and I to research an upcoming sale to find her a quality broodmare at a bargain price.

We came up with a mare called Donna Juanita. We told the boss that $10000 would be a bargain price.

She sent the foreman to the sale to bid on her. His instructions were to go no higher than $6000.

He got to 5500 and the other bidder hesitated for quite a time before bidding 6000. The foreman quickly bid 6500 and the other bidder shook his head.

The foreman signed the papers and brought her home.

The boss was fuming about the extra 500 despite the foreman offering to pay it in return for the equivalent % share of the mare.

She told him no and as he had signed the paperwork he would have to pay the lot and she didn't want the mare.

A few of us put in some money to help him out in return for a % share of the mare.

6 months later Donna Juanita was the toast of the thoroughbred breeding world when her son King Zavata dominated the 2 year old races.

Her value skyrocketed into 6 figures.

The foreman sold her for huge $ and headed north to the warmth of Queensland and an easier life. My % was very handy for a young man who had never previously earned more than $70 per week.

Our grumpy old boss was not so pleased.

Here is what I remember about my first marathon.

I read the Dave Bedford Story the summer of 1971. I found myself one of the better runners when we took our traditional long run in college. So during the cross country season that year I upped my mileage running as much as 165 miles in a week. Getting up before class and running the 14 miles round trip to Lake Carl Blackwell outside Stillwater, Oklahoma. I ran this several times a week.

I am sure I was a problem for my college coaches. Didn’t do much for my cross country season finished 28th at the Big Eight Meet after finishing 11th as a sophomore. It didn’t help that two weeks before the meet I was the only person on campus with chicken pox (quarantined in the campus infirmary). After the Big Eight race my cross country coach called me “a pu$$y” I almost quit school and headed back to California but didn’t and matured along the way. The scolding and mileage did help my marathon.

I had little clue other some tips here and there. One was put as much Vaseline as possible on my feet (a little too slick and slippery). Drink and pint of beer and eat a dinner of fish and potatoes (worked well). These two tips came from Irish race walker Johnny Kelley. I chose the Onitsuka Tiger Marathon shoes for the race. Google the name and see how thin they were. This particular shoe had a leather insole with no padding. The shoe was entirely white including the swoosh (from a short period where brandings were outlawed when competing in international races).

My right foot began to heat up quite a bit around 22 miles. By the finish I was so blistered it caused a little limp. I had a stick shift Datsun with about a 150 miles to drive. Not easy. Soon as I got into town I drove over to the Santa Monica College track to tell my club coach Joe Douglas about my run. Must of been a sight seeing this limping excited young Igy.

mo’pak,

Great story.

Igy

MikeF sent me this photo: #330 1st Doug Schmenk, #165 2nd Fred Lands and #180 Young Igy. I believe this was around the ten mile mark which we hit around 51:00.

https://i.imgur.com/kkoxSYt_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium