Sorry you are correct. I was looking at C max not t max.
I will say that ingestion normally is much slower than mucosal absorption (sublingual klonipin is the preferred way to abuse it). Also, it looks like t max was approaching an asymptote.
Sorry you are correct. I was looking at C max not t max.
I will say that ingestion normally is much slower than mucosal absorption (sublingual klonipin is the preferred way to abuse it). Also, it looks like t max was approaching an asymptote.
I will say to the extent the absorption was transmucosal, you are correct about tmax
Armstronglivs wrote:
pupil3142 wrote:
aaargh, sorry Trashcan, my bad.
Its on this graph and it appears the opposite;
https://pubs.asahq.org/view-large/figure/1261463/6tt1.pngAs dose increases, Tmax (the median minimum time to reach maximum concentration) DECREASES such that with biggest dose, max C is reached in 20 minutes.
So your paper seems to show that OD amounts are well within the knee timeframe.
Scenario;
1) he is clearly high in the shop - guess he is on high dose of fentanyl already. Death minus 30+ = this dose is waning at death, but not much.
2) he drops some more tabs in the car with his drug dealer mate. what else is he doing in the car? he is having a good time right? Death minus 20 = this dose is peaking at death.
3) he munches his stash in the police car (whist being wrestled by three policemen and with his hands behind his back - noone has explained this yet. Death minus 9:30 - 12/15 minutes. Linearly, this (huge????) dose is at 50% of peak at death.
Is the above plausible? The only bit i find implausible is the stash munching whilst fighting police officers in the squad car. Maybe he got the baggy out of his pocket onto the seat, tossed the tabs on the seat and gummed them from there?
There is also the rumoured FBI report of unusually high strength fentanyl tabs.
I know you're so determined to prove Floyd died of an overdose - anything to get the white cop off - even though you're no medical expert and several experts so far interviewed have expressed the view it wasn't an overdose, and also while no evidence has been presented to the court about that issue. Are you running the defence case for them in social media? Probably not - you're just another good 'ol boy trying to look after your own.
But consider this - if it was apparent that Floyd was overdosing (he wasn't, he was 'high' - which isn't fatal of itself) , and Chauvin expressed concern about this (wrong word) he did nothing to try to prevent it or ameliorate it and his subsequent actions made it worse, effectively ensuring Floyd's death. Negligence leading to death also constitutes homicide.
Why don't you just argue that Floyd forced his neck on Chauvin's knee.
I will say that while both are bad, they should be treated differently. Not calling for narcan early would be seen as a crime of omission. Btw, do cops In Minneapolis carry narcan? I certainly hope so.
Death by knee to neck is a crime of commission.. I do wonder if GF was unable to swallow the fentanyl due to the knee on his neck. That would result in a more rapid absorption as well as a higher blood level.
I don’t have data on oral fentanyl (because that is not how it is prescribed), but generally oral absorption results in a significantly lower area under the curve due to stomach acids and first pass metabolism.
And give the guy credit for actually looking at the data and interpreting it correctly.
Cheers, trashcan.
What A doesnt get is i dont have a horse in this race. I am just starting with a hypothesis that DC is guily and then seeing if it can be disproven - only it doesnt require disproven - it requires reasonable doubt.
To set the record straight for A, I tried to post a new thread about this appalling crime below, but it got deleted.
I might get banned for posting the link again, but i am not sure why LRC wont allow us to post such disgusting behaviour. I dont know the source, or the other side of the story of course, but charging a semi naked woman with lynching her boyfriend is a clear abuse of power and disgusting. everyone involved should be sacked.
iamjasmyne.com/she-called-911-on-her-white-boyfriend-the-lapd-arrested-her-black-neighbor-instead/
Armstronglivs wrote:
yawn wrote:
You completely missed the point of my post. My point is crowd size for any situation matters. The Lieutenant looked foolish to say otherwise.
In this specific case, Donald Williams said under oath that he threatened to “ slap the f*** out of you” To the officers on scene. Seems pretty threatening to me.
So Chauvin felt "threatened" by a crowd remonstrating with him - yet he didn't move his knee, and even more significantly, neither he nor his fellow officers called for back-up, which is what they would be expected to do in a dangerous situation.
Instead, Chauvin posed over Floyd like a trophy hunter, while his victim gasped his last beneath him. Yeah - he was so threatened.
But the fear Floyd must have felt as he cried out for his life, and the bystanders pleading for police to stop as they watched him die, means nothing to people like you.
It is impossible to take anything you say seriously when your go to defense is racism.
The crowd wasn’t “remonstrating” with them. It was a hostile crowd that could have turned on a dime. You let emotions dictate your opinion instead of facts. Even when others present logical arguments regarding drug facts you call them racists. Grow up.
Wrong again. Look at the recent case of the bar fight involving the Oklahoma football player.
And what I forgot to add in my other response is, no, I don’t care about the emotions of the bystanders except for to show they were hostile. If they went home and cried that is on them.
pupil3142 wrote:
Cheers, trashcan.
What A doesnt get is i dont have a horse in this race. I am just starting with a hypothesis that DC is guily and then seeing if it can be disproven - only it doesnt require disproven - it requires reasonable doubt.
To set the record straight for A, I tried to post a new thread about this appalling crime below, but it got deleted.
I might get banned for posting the link again, but i am not sure why LRC wont allow us to post such disgusting behaviour. I dont know the source, or the other side of the story of course, but charging a semi naked woman with lynching her boyfriend is a clear abuse of power and disgusting. everyone involved should be sacked.
iamjasmyne.com/she-called-911-on-her-white-boyfriend-the-lapd-arrested-her-black-neighbor-instead/
Letsrun doesn’t like such articles.
yawn wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
So Chauvin felt "threatened" by a crowd remonstrating with him - yet he didn't move his knee, and even more significantly, neither he nor his fellow officers called for back-up, which is what they would be expected to do in a dangerous situation.
Instead, Chauvin posed over Floyd like a trophy hunter, while his victim gasped his last beneath him. Yeah - he was so threatened.
But the fear Floyd must have felt as he cried out for his life, and the bystanders pleading for police to stop as they watched him die, means nothing to people like you.
It is impossible to take anything you say seriously when your go to defense is racism.
The crowd wasn’t “remonstrating” with them. It was a hostile crowd that could have turned on a dime. You let emotions dictate your opinion instead of facts. Even when others present logical arguments regarding drug facts you call them racists. Grow up.
I wouldn't want to grow into what you are. A "hostile crowd that could have turned on a dime"? Turned by what? To do what? Were any of them armed? Were they threatening harm to any of the police? Some of them were just kids - like the girl who filmed it. Or old men. Your comments are fatuous alarmism. The police must sure be tough guys to feel threatened by bystanders like that - who incidentally believed they were watching the police kill Floyd. You don't find it surprising they were getting a bit agitated by that? Clearly, you were unmoved by seeing a man die under a policeman's knee. That says a lot about you.
Your other so-called "logical" arguments about drugs are simply speculation, not supported by either the facts or expert opinion - of which there is none here. Floyd may have been high but that doesn't suggest or prove he died from an overdose - and that is a view of experts.
The apologism here for Chauvin and his fellow police officers' inhumanity, that resulted in the death of a man over a fake 20 dollar bill, reveals the disease that still afflicts American culture.
trashcan wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
I know you're so determined to prove Floyd died of an overdose - anything to get the white cop off - even though you're no medical expert and several experts so far interviewed have expressed the view it wasn't an overdose, and also while no evidence has been presented to the court about that issue. Are you running the defence case for them in social media? Probably not - you're just another good 'ol boy trying to look after your own.
But consider this - if it was apparent that Floyd was overdosing (he wasn't, he was 'high' - which isn't fatal of itself) , and Chauvin expressed concern about this (wrong word) he did nothing to try to prevent it or ameliorate it and his subsequent actions made it worse, effectively ensuring Floyd's death. Negligence leading to death also constitutes homicide.
Why don't you just argue that Floyd forced his neck on Chauvin's knee.
I will say that while both are bad, they should be treated differently. Not calling for narcan early would be seen as a crime of omission. Btw, do cops In Minneapolis carry narcan? I certainly hope so.
Death by knee to neck is a crime of commission.. I do wonder if GF was unable to swallow the fentanyl due to the knee on his neck. That would result in a more rapid absorption as well as a higher blood level.
I don’t have data on oral fentanyl (because that is not how it is prescribed), but generally oral absorption results in a significantly lower area under the curve due to stomach acids and first pass metabolism.
And give the guy credit for actually looking at the data and interpreting it correctly.
It isn't simply a crime of "omission", as you put it - it could easily be argued that Chauvin's actions contributed to the effects of a possible overdose by impairing Floyd's ability to breathe. Acts of negligence or reckless endangerment that result in a loss of life are still homicide. Chauvin's actions are impossible to disentangle from an overdose because Floyd was still alive under his knee. That makes Chauvin a cause of death, even if the drugs were a factor (yet to be proven).
I actually have not been super invested in this issue. I think we do have a policing problem in the U S, but this case doesn’t really represent the problems..
I had problems with the notion that the labs conclusively proved overdose. Again, the fentanyl/norfentanyl ratio is not what is commonly seen in OD’s. I actually was more inclined to suspect a meth induced arrhythmia until I learned about the low level.
If the problem is that he had an elevated level due to an inability to swallow the fentanyl (hence absorbing it mucosally) due to the neck restraint I don’t how that would play in court
Btw lower dose, longer t max is counterintuitive to me. Any idea why?
Armstronglivs wrote:
Muldoon wrote:
You are wrong. You haven't understood the evidence. You haven't even understood what I posted.
The testimony of Ploeger was ""It would be reasonable to put a knee on someone's neck until they were not resisting anymore, but it should stop when they are no longer combative." So the prosecution witness has effectively barred the prosecution from arguing knee restraints are unreasonable per se. Ploeger says they are reasonable. He's also effectively barred them even arguing that knee restraint are unreasonable when applied to a handcuffed person since, as we see, handcuffed people can certainly be combative. In fact, Ploeger has probably damaged the prosecution's ability to argue that knee restraints are considered deadly - why would a restraint be considered "reasonable" if it was also likely to cause death? That's what firearms are for. So, like I said, this doesn't help the prosecution as much as people seem to believe (or want to believe).
It's worth noting that you are the idiot who once posted this glaring legal error - ""if Chauvin applying his knee to Floyd's death cannot be ruled out as a cause then he is guilty of homicide" - while at the same time pretending you are a legal expert just because you live in some other country that is a common law jurisdiction.
Back to grade school we go. The police witness was not arguing a knee restraint is ipso facto unreasonable force. Unreasonable force is the issue, not the method as such. Once Floyd was subdued, incapable of resistance and showing no signs of resisting the knee restraint could no longer be justified, because at that point it could easily lead to a person's death. And did so. That is the witness's expert testimony. The issue is not the use of a knee restraint but its misuse. All 9'29" of it. I might be able to strike you in self defence to protect myself but if I keep beating you until you die, long after you have shown any will or capacity to attack me, then you have committed homcide. That was Chauvin's unreasonable use of force. It is only "self- defence" to white racists.
The so-called "glaring error" you fail to understand is that if Chauvin's actions can be established as being in any way causative of Floyd's death, then - regardless of any other contributory factors, such as drugs and Floyd' s heart condition - he is guilty of homicide.
This race-obsessed weirdo Armstrong posted this - "if Chauvin applying his knee to Floyd's death cannot be ruled out as a cause then he is guilty of homicide" - which anyone on this board can easily is a completely erroneous recitation of law. The evidentiary standard and the burden are WRONG. There will NEVER be a jury instruction in a murder case in America that resembles anything like this stupid language that Armstrong Livs posted.
Then he tried to qualify and rephrase it, and pretend he really meant something else. And he STILL got it wrong. Not even the State's proposed jury instructions propose what dim bulb Armstrong posted.
After a decade of fearmongering about the opioid "crisis" in America, the media has now committed itself to arguing that it was impossible for the most famous opioid addict in America at the moment (Floyd) to actually overdose on the most deadly opioid (fentanyl) in the opioid "crisis," even when lethal levels of that most deadly opioid were found in his body on the day he died.
Armstronglivs wrote:
It isn't simply a crime of "omission", as you put it - it could easily be argued that Chauvin's actions contributed to the effects of a possible overdose by impairing Floyd's ability to breathe. Acts of negligence or reckless endangerment that result in a loss of life are still homicide. Chauvin's actions are impossible to disentangle from an overdose because Floyd was still alive under his knee. That makes Chauvin a cause of death, even if the drugs were a factor (yet to be proven).
I dont want to speak for trashcan since he hasnt commented on this, but trashcan spoke of a crime of commission, ie a forbidden act. You said trashcan said a crime of omission; which is where someone should do something but doesnt. Completely different but you quote them interchangeably, mr lawyer.
i suspect that confusing commission with omission is law school grade 1, but what do i know, armsrtoglics is the famous lawyer. wouldnt surprise me if sooner or later he uses guilt and innocent interchangeably.
armstonglibs; you have two choices; you can simply say you misread etc in a hurry, in which case, tbh, to err is human. or you can double down and go on the ad homiem offensive and prove what we say about you.
I know what i am betting on, please prove me wrong.
Trashcan - sorry for jumping into your discussion. if you meant 'omission' pls advise.
Not all areas are the same wrote:
I am Sam wrote:
Amazing how everything in USA is narrowed down to Republicans vs Democrats, says it all about the way the US is now and the way it is perceived and not respected around the world.
A guy dies after a cop kneels on his neck for minutes, but it is not about a murder trial or law and order, or the courts doing its thing...it is 'democrat trash crowd'...'republican Trump deplorables' etc.
The way I read the independent coverage of the trial, it is pretty sickening what the cops did that day.
What is the name of that independent coverage of the trial that you read?
I know its been 4 days, but such is the lack of investment I have in this.
I don't take my news from politically biased US outlets...that goes for both sides. I may surprise you that overseas news outlets, including Australia, actually have reporters stationed in US. Who wouldn't, its a goldmine of stories , mostly weird, but I digress.
We also have independent news broadcasters, adhering to high standards.
So, short answer, we have people who can interpret and report on the trial in an unbiased way
trashcan wrote:
peacefularson wrote:
he absolutely would have died from the OD, because he did die from OD, not the MPD approved neck restraint. 9 minutes or 24 hours, it didn't kill him. chauvins knee pressure was so weak that at one point GF was able to lift his head off the ground.
I have provided plenty of evidence to the contrary about the OD. You continuing to make this assertion with such confidence without providing evidence beyond a fentanyl level and a girlfriend’s guess(I will take the norfentanyl/fentanyl ratio every time) does not reflect curiosity.
I was surprised to hear in the trial the George Floyd OD'd in March and spent a week in the hospital. So, yes, there is a high probability that this was another OD, certainly makes me have some doubts and hard to prove that it wasn't a major factor if not the key factor.
Reflection_ wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
The stench on this thread of white racism has become overwhelming. It is easy to see how police officers like Chauvin can feel justified in what they do. There is nothing that some of you won't say to defend what he did and blame the victim. It is all versions of how the uppity (black man) got what was coming to him. America has little changed.
BINGO! THIS is the “United” State of America!!!
Yes!
And we are going on a year since that happened and how many similar cases have there been?
Also, why so many illegals flocking to this terribly racist country?
No I was contrasting the two. Specifically, let’s imigaine that GF was dying of an OD. If Chauvin was interested in his welfare, and was concerned about drugs, checking breathing and having Narcan ready, doing cpr if necessary is what he SHOULD have done,
I think most cops in major cities are trained with how to deal with opiate overdoses. To not do this would be a crime of omission , although it certainly could be argued that kneeling on him exacerbated the symptoms of the OD, which would be a crime of commission.
Muldoon wrote:
After a decade of fearmongering about the opioid "crisis" in America, the media has now committed itself to arguing that it was impossible for the most famous opioid addict in America at the moment (Floyd) to actually overdose on the most deadly opioid (fentanyl) in the opioid "crisis," even when lethal levels of that most deadly opioid were found in his body on the day he died.
Bingo!
White Cops illegally, or even legally, killed how many people in the United States last year? Now compare that incredibly low number to the crazy high number of lives lost by the various forms of fentanyl.
I am Sam wrote:
Not all areas are the same wrote:
What is the name of that independent coverage of the trial that you read?
I know its been 4 days, but such is the lack of investment I have in this.
I don't take my news from politically biased US outlets...that goes for both sides. I may surprise you that overseas news outlets, including Australia, actually have reporters stationed in US. Who wouldn't, its a goldmine of stories , mostly weird, but I digress.
We also have independent news broadcasters, adhering to high standards.
So, short answer, we have people who can interpret and report on the trial in an unbiased way
Check out the full trial library at C-Span. Crazy how the media outlets pick and choose what they decide to post in their "newscasts" and how they spin it.
Armstronglivs- and anyone else that has 15 minutes.
PLEASE watch this, Thanks!
