Did you see the norfentanyl/fentanyl ratio in the tox report? Did you read the article I posted on chest stiffness post OD? That is the data I referred to.
You do not know when he picked up. No one does. His girlfriend made a guess it was 2 weeks prior to his death. The ratio says he had a tolerance. Your certainty is decidedly unwarranted.
Also the timetable of his behavior does not fit
and i didnt say he was only on fentanyl. the pills he took were a combination of fentanyl and methamphetamine.
his lungs were filled with fluid. he was foaming at the mouth. he said he couldnt breathe before he was on the ground. and chauvin applied very little pressure to GF's lower neck. you got nothing. post irrelevant links all you want (that interestingly you never explain yourself, and expect everyone else to interpret them the same way you supposedly are?)
peacefularson wrote:
and i didnt say he was only on fentanyl. the pills he took were a combination of fentanyl and methamphetamine.
The meth dose was sufficiently low it would have been from the day before, and if it was on board it would have counteracted the effects of the fentanyl to some degree. Also, oral absorption usually takes around 40-45 minutes. Mucosal absorption is usually faster, but apparently slows down a lot with large doses of fentanyl, so we are still in the 40 minute+ range. This means that (as not all life processes cease when the heart stops) his blood level in the ME’s office was probably far higher than it was when he was under Chauvin’s knee.
https://pubs.asahq.org/anesthesiology/article/88/2/305/36529/Dose-Proportionality-and-Pharmacokinetics-of-OralWhat articles do you need explained? The one thing I haven’t supported is the pattern you see with opiate overdose. I have seen it a few times and so know the timing one would expect from phase to phase. I wouldn’t expect a journal article on that, though, and when I searched none came up.
My opinion of the timing being inconsistent with death by overdose was also noted by one or two of the chiefs of Toxicology interviewed in the article I linked.
Basically a white cop has to go to prison even when he is innocent because the Blacks will riot and caused billions in damages to the city. Meanwhile the Jewish mayor was bowing down to BLM last summer as the burned down several city blocks. Diversity sucks.
The 2 medical examiners said it was homicide. I won’t take a stand on murder vs manslaughter, but the behavior, timing and labs certainly indicate that the proximate cause of Floyd’s death was Chauvin’s knee.
They are starting to get angry with your posting facts. I thought they were pro facts?
https://twitter.com/ramzpaul/status/1377028596573863937/photo/1trashcan wrote:
The 2 medical examiners said it was homicide. I won’t take a stand on murder vs manslaughter, but the behavior, timing and labs certainly indicate that the proximate cause of Floyd’s death was Chauvin’s knee.
they can say whatever they want. doesnt follow from the facts in the toxicology report. baden admitted that he never saw any evidence of asphyxiation from the autopsy itself and simply inferred it from the viral bystander video . and both that and the "updated" state report were made before the official toxicology report was released.
89% white in 1953. wrote:
https://twitter.com/ramzpaul/status/1377028596573863937/photo/1trashcan wrote:
The 2 medical examiners said it was homicide. I won’t take a stand on murder vs manslaughter, but the behavior, timing and labs certainly indicate that the proximate cause of Floyd’s death was Chauvin’s knee.
This has been covered in the thread
1) very little pressure (6-7 kg) is required to occlude the carotid, jugular, or vertebralartery (i haven’t checked the basilar vein). No trauma required
2) the labs have been discussed
A) tolerance
B) users don’t announce when they pick up so nobody actually knows
C) people who are dependent have a substantial amount of norfentanyl, fentanyl’s long-lived active metabolite in their blood. George Floyd had a notable norfentanyl level.
D) for God’s sake don’t call someone a liar when they make a statement you disagree with. Ask them to explain data that seems inconsistent with their statements, ask for supporting documents, but jumping to accusations of lies when confronted with differing information means you can’t learn.
peacefularson wrote:
they can say whatever they want. doesnt follow from the facts in the toxicology report. baden admitted that he never saw any evidence of asphyxiation from the autopsy itself and simply inferred it from the viral bystander video . and both that and the "updated" state report were made before the official toxicology report was released.
You are ignoring the norfentanyl level, and the behavior pattern, although that is not something someone unfamiliar with opiate ODs could pick up in a short amount of time. Blocking the trachea is not required for proximate cause to be Chauvin’s knee. Knocking out brain stem blood supply could definitely do it, with control of respiratory and cardiac function
89% white in 1953. wrote:
Basically a white cop has to go to prison even when he is innocent because the Blacks will riot and caused billions in damages to the city. Meanwhile the Jewish mayor was bowing down to BLM last summer as the burned down several city blocks. Diversity sucks.
Only if the Jury is convinced he is guilty, it is a multiracial jury so even if jurors did vote along racial lines it would be a mistrial, meaning they would do the trial all over again if the prosecution chooses to (And they would) if they have a 2nd mistrial they could keep trying it, but most likely after 2 tries they say forget it, and this is a very expensive trial so trying it 3 or more times would likely be financially prohibitive, The jury does not make their vote based on what the mob may or may not do, they vote on whether or not he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, Any riots are strictly law enforcements problem and they have the national guard and even the military if the police can't handle it. Side note the Mayor is a 2:16 Marathoner Jacob Frey and last year when BLM protested in front of his house and asked him if he would defund/abolish the police, Frey got up on stage, took the Microphone from the Lady who is one of the BLM leaders and told her F__k off, I run this City, Not You and I will NOT Defund or Abolish the Police, So it helps the Police knowing they got the Mayors support.
trashcan wrote:
peacefularson wrote:
and i didnt say he was only on fentanyl. the pills he took were a combination of fentanyl and methamphetamine.
The meth dose was sufficiently low it would have been from the day before, and if it was on board it would have counteracted the effects of the fentanyl to some degree. Also, oral absorption usually takes around 40-45 minutes. Mucosal absorption is usually faster, but apparently slows down a lot with large doses of fentanyl, so we are still in the 40 minute+ range. This means that (as not all life processes cease when the heart stops) his blood level in the ME’s office was probably far higher than it was when he was under Chauvin’s knee.
https://pubs.asahq.org/anesthesiology/article/88/2/305/36529/Dose-Proportionality-and-Pharmacokinetics-of-Oral
Hi, trashcan
I have skim read the article - interesting. Thanks for posting it and the other articles, but i think its not quite that clear.
The study does not appear designed to seriously investigate rate of increase of dose due to oral fentanyl; that appears to be a side effect. The dose rates were only measured every 15 minutes in the first hour, and the dose / time graphs are displayed in intervals of 300 minutes over a 1500 minutes period on the x axis. So the first hour interval (15) minute cannot give clear results (too grainy) and the graphs cant show the detail you use. If there is part of the article with better granularity and better x axis definition for the first hour, with faster intervals than 15 minutes, please tell me.
You can see that dose does rise really rapidly and appears to peak in maybe 40-45 minutes. It also drops rapidly. I believe that 'takes around 40-45 minutes' is very different from 'peaks' in 40-45 minutes.
The graphs dont seem to show a major change reduction in dose increase rate related to dose size, so why do you say that please?
Finally, and very importantly, the cdc paper i quoted earlier mentions the very fast transdermal properties of fentanyl (why it is commonly given in patch form), and the simple physical contact of the pill sliding down yer gullet into your stomach is meant to provide a very fast hit. Any applied physicist, such as me, or a level chemist will tell you that increase surface area rapidly speeds reactions. If GF had munched the pills, as i understand munched tabs were found, then the contact effects would have been greatly magnified.
I agree with you about the meth, that seems a red herring. Re blood levels increasing after death; there are so many unknowns there, i dont have a comment on that at this stage. It would be interesting to see if prosecution decide to tackle this.
Armstronglivs wrote:
The stench on this thread of white racism has become overwhelming. It is easy to see how police officers like Chauvin can feel justified in what they do. There is nothing that some of you won't say to defend what he did and blame the victim. It is all versions of how the uppity (black man) got what was coming to him. America has little changed.
BINGO! THIS is the “United” State of America!!!
aaargh, sorry Trashcan, my bad.
Its on this graph and it appears the opposite;
https://pubs.asahq.org/view-large/figure/1261463/6tt1.png
As dose increases, Tmax (the median minimum time to reach maximum concentration) DECREASES such that with biggest dose, max C is reached in 20 minutes.
So your paper seems to show that OD amounts are well within the knee timeframe.
Scenario;
1) he is clearly high in the shop - guess he is on high dose of fentanyl already. Death minus 30+ = this dose is waning at death, but not much.
2) he drops some more tabs in the car with his drug dealer mate. what else is he doing in the car? he is having a good time right? Death minus 20 = this dose is peaking at death.
3) he munches his stash in the police car (whist being wrestled by three policemen and with his hands behind his back - noone has explained this yet. Death minus 9:30 - 12/15 minutes. Linearly, this (huge????) dose is at 50% of peak at death.
Is the above plausible? The only bit i find implausible is the stash munching whilst fighting police officers in the squad car. Maybe he got the baggy out of his pocket onto the seat, tossed the tabs on the seat and gummed them from there?
There is also the rumoured FBI report of unusually high strength fentanyl tabs.
Muldoon wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
You are wrong. You haven't understood the evidence. The knee restraint wasn't justified once Floyd was unable to resist, handcuffed and on the ground. This was well before the moment he died.
You are wrong. You haven't understood the evidence. You haven't even understood what I posted.
The testimony of Ploeger was ""It would be reasonable to put a knee on someone's neck until they were not resisting anymore, but it should stop when they are no longer combative." So the prosecution witness has effectively barred the prosecution from arguing knee restraints are unreasonable per se. Ploeger says they are reasonable. He's also effectively barred them even arguing that knee restraint are unreasonable when applied to a handcuffed person since, as we see, handcuffed people can certainly be combative. In fact, Ploeger has probably damaged the prosecution's ability to argue that knee restraints are considered deadly - why would a restraint be considered "reasonable" if it was also likely to cause death? That's what firearms are for. So, like I said, this doesn't help the prosecution as much as people seem to believe (or want to believe).
It's worth noting that you are the idiot who once posted this glaring legal error - ""if Chauvin applying his knee to Floyd's death cannot be ruled out as a cause then he is guilty of homicide" - while at the same time pretending you are a legal expert just because you live in some other country that is a common law jurisdiction.
Back to grade school we go. The police witness was not arguing a knee restraint is ipso facto unreasonable force. Unreasonable force is the issue, not the method as such. Once Floyd was subdued, incapable of resistance and showing no signs of resisting the knee restraint could no longer be justified, because at that point it could easily lead to a person's death. And did so. That is the witness's expert testimony. The issue is not the use of a knee restraint but its misuse. All 9'29" of it. I might be able to strike you in self defence to protect myself but if I keep beating you until you die, long after you have shown any will or capacity to attack me, then you have committed homcide. That was Chauvin's unreasonable use of force. It is only "self- defence" to white racists.
The so-called "glaring error" you fail to understand is that if Chauvin's actions can be established as being in any way causative of Floyd's death, then - regardless of any other contributory factors, such as drugs and Floyd' s heart condition - he is guilty of homicide.
You aren't equipped to debate these issues. But your prejudices are in full display.
yawn wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
There was no crowd of 100 and they weren't threatening the police officers. As the senior official said, they are trained to deal with these things. As a senior officer he's had years of experience - that will add weight to his testimony.
You completely missed the point of my post. My point is crowd size for any situation matters. The Lieutenant looked foolish to say otherwise.
In this specific case, Donald Williams said under oath that he threatened to “ slap the f*** out of you” To the officers on scene. Seems pretty threatening to me.
So Chauvin felt "threatened" by a crowd remonstrating with him - yet he didn't move his knee, and even more significantly, neither he nor his fellow officers called for back-up, which is what they would be expected to do in a dangerous situation.
Instead, Chauvin posed over Floyd like a trophy hunter, while his victim gasped his last beneath him. Yeah - he was so threatened.
But the fear Floyd must have felt as he cried out for his life, and the bystanders pleading for police to stop as they watched him die, means nothing to people like you.
pupil3142 wrote:
aaargh, sorry Trashcan, my bad.
Its on this graph and it appears the opposite;
https://pubs.asahq.org/view-large/figure/1261463/6tt1.pngAs dose increases, Tmax (the median minimum time to reach maximum concentration) DECREASES such that with biggest dose, max C is reached in 20 minutes.
So your paper seems to show that OD amounts are well within the knee timeframe.
Scenario;
1) he is clearly high in the shop - guess he is on high dose of fentanyl already. Death minus 30+ = this dose is waning at death, but not much.
2) he drops some more tabs in the car with his drug dealer mate. what else is he doing in the car? he is having a good time right? Death minus 20 = this dose is peaking at death.
3) he munches his stash in the police car (whist being wrestled by three policemen and with his hands behind his back - noone has explained this yet. Death minus 9:30 - 12/15 minutes. Linearly, this (huge????) dose is at 50% of peak at death.
Is the above plausible? The only bit i find implausible is the stash munching whilst fighting police officers in the squad car. Maybe he got the baggy out of his pocket onto the seat, tossed the tabs on the seat and gummed them from there?
There is also the rumoured FBI report of unusually high strength fentanyl tabs.
I know you're so determined to prove Floyd died of an overdose - anything to get the white cop off - even though you're no medical expert and several experts so far interviewed have expressed the view it wasn't an overdose, and also while no evidence has been presented to the court about that issue. Are you running the defence case for them in social media? Probably not - you're just another good 'ol boy trying to look after your own.
But consider this - if it was apparent that Floyd was overdosing (he wasn't, he was 'high' - which isn't fatal of itself) , and Chauvin expressed concern about this (wrong word) he did nothing to try to prevent it or ameliorate it and his subsequent actions made it worse, effectively ensuring Floyd's death. Negligence leading to death also constitutes homicide.
Why don't you just argue that Floyd forced his neck on Chauvin's knee.
