50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Hope y'all are still safe from fire Mike F. May the wind shift and blow some rain your way from the mighty pacific ocean.

Excellent marathon Dave!

Missed my 2nd XC race yesterday favoring spectating at my son's college race - his team, Southern Oregon, won and maintain their #1 Nats Ranking NAIA. I got up early to do something worthy... ran hard for 2.56 miles around the River Esplanade at 6:12 pace. I'll take it but dang it's so hard to be under 6 these days.

KP

What a difference a week can make. I ran a good 5K XC yesterday after an ugly 8K one a week ago. I was out the first slightly downhill mile in 6:36, 2nd slightly uphill mile in 6:58. At that point a big gap in the field had developed behind me and I eased up a bit with no age group peers breathing down my neck and ran the 3rd mile in 7:05, and finished up at 21:32 for 1st 65-69 and 3rd 60+.

40 miles for the week with mostly recovery walking until the race.

M- 7 walk

T- 5 walk

W-6 walk

Th- off

F- 7 of run about 400M at about 6:00/mi. pace, walk about 1200M.

S- 3 w.u. 5k XC race, 2 w.d.

Su- 7 walk barefoot on the beach

Mike F. I am praying for everyone up your way. One of my sisters and her husband live in Carneros. Their house is OK so far, but they have been evacuated from it for a week now. They make about 200 cases of Chardonnay and 200 cases of red Bordeaux blend each year and are waiting to hear if they have lost their entire red grape contract for this year.

Everyone get healthy or stay healthy!

Rtype wrote:

Brittle I can certainly empathize, but hips are one of the few things I have not injured (yet) in my long list of injuries. I do know from experience that the elliptical does increase hip strength, however.

I like the elliptical idea and will try it.

Thanks very much to everyone to everyone who offered suggestions.

Charlie, thanks for your barefoot idea, but I am pretty sure if I tried running barefoot, I would just create new problems for myself. I have a gift that way. ;-)

Allen1959 wrote:

Brittle -- I suffered with hip pain beginning in high school. In college I was in pain for my entire one-and-only track season, to the point where I could barely walk after the final meet.

In my early 50s, I finally found a solution. Simple side planks. Weight on my forearm, and hold a straight body position for a count of 50. Times two or three on each side. I couldn't believe how something so simple could solve a decades-long problem.

Allen1959, thanks for sharing this experience.

I will try this, too.

Morning masters brothers and sisters. Cannot adequately express how grateful we are for your far too kind thoughts, prayers and mojo.

Surreal would probably best describe this past week. We had a massive wind storm rip through our area all Sunday afternoon and evening...about 5 p.m. We heard what sounded like a cherry bomb then a hard thump...it was our favorite massive sycamore tree being felled...thankfully it missed our house although it ruined our fence line. No big shakes. Shortly thereafter near 9 p.m. I walk out to the garage to load my car in prep for Monday morning work and am greeted by a 4 foot rattlesnake...apparently it was attempting to escape the intense gale-like winds and opted to take refuge inside. As it was hissing at me and had absolutely no intentions of retreating, I had to spin on a dime to 're-locate' it before it nailed my dog, wife or self...was not pretty.

So, I go to bed just a bit frazzled...alas, it was a mere pre-cursor of what was yet to come. Awoke to the smell of strong smoke at 2:45 a.m. Tried to turn on the bedside lamp but no go...we had lost all power. I get up and grab a flashlight and begin investigating the source of smoke smell. Minutes later we are ablaze in flashing red lights and the sheriff's department loudspeakers announcing mandatory evacuations. We grab passports, some documents, running and work clothes and the dog and high tail it. As we are leaving, we hold hands and say goodbye to our home.

Fast forward a couple of days and miraculously our house is spared and we can come home...for a couple of hours only as we are awakened yet again for a second mandatory evacuation...now the fire is atop the ridge literally directly above us....aaaagggh. Fortunately we had not yet unpacked our Beverly Hillbillies-laden vehicles and are homeless once again at 3:00 a.m.

Short story long, the prevailing wind fortuitously blew in a southerly direction and we were spared yet a second time. We are just now back home again and although our fire is only 15% contained, we are not anywhere near as threatened as we were. We are surrounded by incredible devastation and living in an absolute ash tray...but immensely thankful to be still standing...MANY of our friends, teammates and neighbors have lost everything. Please keep them in your thoughts.

Oh, and to my wife's sometime chagrin, I did manage to 'run' every day...not for fitness but instead, for mental health...33 mostly zombie trance-like miles...whole lotta meditation and positive visualization.

Hopefully this roller coaster ride has come to a conclusion.

dhaaga, props to you on that sub 3:00 at Hartford...everybody else get/stay healthy...and thank you all from the bottom of my smoke filled heart and lungs

your pal,

MikeF

Just 9 x 200's today. Mostly easy but a few 29's a few mid 28's and 27.53 on the final interval- couldn't resist. Recovering from yesterday's 5k obstacle course race. 7th in Elite division. Not to bad for an older athlete. By the end I was hacking because of the smoke and particles in the air- lungs and sinus were inflamed for at least 24 hours.

Good to hear that you made it out safely MikeF. Quite harrowing and sorry for the losses suffered in California this past week.

Congrats on the stellar 2:55 dhagga, it's nice to blast past your pre-race goals! That's a really good 55+ time.

70 miles here, pretty good quality too, here are the highlights

Tu - 4X 1000 and 2X 400 on the track (29 Fing degrees following a snowstorm the day before)

Th - 8X 200 on turf, getting progressively faster, followed by 2X 100 m near sprint effort

Sa - 3.5 mile tempo on rolling terrain, 1:45 recovery then 1/2 mile (45 ft net uphill) at 10K effort

Su - 15 at steady pace

All were at VDOT 57+/- effort, if you follow that stuff

Slightly easier week ahead, then a cutback for some racing

dhaaga, excellent race! You are really an inspiration.

MikeF, I can't imagine how horrible that experience must have been, but so glad that you and yours are safe and it appears your house is too.

I live about 150 miles away from the big fires and have been basically unaffected except for one day last week (Wednesday) when a strong wind blew the wrong way and it was pretty smoky for an afternoon. Fortunately I had run first thing in the morning before the smoke blew in, and by the following morning it was mostly gone.

I had an acceptable week by recent standards, very similar to last week.

Mon: 90 minutes on bike trainer

Tues: 10.5 miles at 9:09 pace, 7 mile bike commute

Weds: 10.6 miles at 9:03 pace

Thurs: 93 minutes on bike trainer

Fri: 10.5 miles at 9:09 pace

Sat: 14.1 miles in 2:06 (8:56/mile pace). Felt fine except that cramp-like pain in my upper left thigh recurred, after not showing up for the three previous runs. Don't know what's going on here.

Sun: 36 miles on bike

I suppose it's time to bite the bullet and recognize there's no way I'm running a marathon in three weeks, and change my entry to the half. I have a lot of confidence I can get through a half-marathon (I've been doing it in training each of the past three weekends), although it will be pathetically slow. Still, better to get out there and compete than sit around at home and mope.

Happy running!

Some good training and racing here, especially dhaaga's sub-3 marathon. I do believe that is a fine time for almost anyone of any age.

Wise decision by amkelley to back off from the full marathon.

Best of all, MikeF and his family (and their house) continue to prevail in the midst of raging forest fires. It seems like the Seven Plagues of Egypt are striking the U.S. these days.

My trivial doings today:

October 15

Sunday

- Hip stretches (3 stretches)

- Basic stretching routine (11 stretches)

- Side planks (3 each side)

- Back stretching routine (9 stretches)

- 2 miles elliptical

MikeF - Good to hear that you're safe and that you still have your home. Living on the edge and fleeing from the flames must be exhausting. Sending you wishes for rain and no wind.

dhaaha - Congratulations on your sub-3 marathon. It's been great to watch your steady build-up. Enjoy your well-deserved rest.

old guy II - Congratulations on your AG win

kevin402 - Nice PB. Keep up the good work

My highlight of the week was burning up the roads today when I did a 1 mile walk outside in 30:00. Yahoo! Just being able to walk without a boot is amazing. I'm making good progress healing and will start PT on Tuesday to build up my weak leg. Running is still a couple of weeks off but I can't wait to get back.

Did anyone run the 5k XC Championships today in Boston? I'd be interested in seeing a race report. Happy running to all!

Grand mix once again mo'pak. Kudos! Tagged along with a friend to Chicago last weekend. He mustered a 3:16 as a 61YO. That being his best finish in a major marathon, he was on a cloud all week.

Sunday.Miles of walking the Loop,AM. Then 15 minutes running on the streets of Oak Park, PM.

Monday, 2.4 miles at 11 minute pace , back home with the dogs.

Tuesday, one hour bike ride. 14 miles.

Wednesday, 3 mile run/shuffle on the side roads.

Thursday, 3 hours walking pastures, shifting fences, moving stock. Maybe 6 miles.

Friday, opened the Strava app at the prompting of an college teammate. Recorded a 3.6 mile run at 10:43 pace.

Saturday, very casual bike ride with the Bride. 1:46 moving time to cover 18 miles.

Sunday, watched our Packer quarterback, Aaron Rodgers collect a broken collarbone and headed for the woods with the dogs for 3 hours walk.

Thanks for everyone's posts. You folks are the real deal and a hell of a lot more inspiring than raft load of white smocked cardiologist.

Thanks Bushie.

Good to see you still getting it done one way or another. I am pretty happy with my fitness but I have just become very slow.

Are you still farming the syrup?

Not sure of the demands of a 1/4 back but a # clav is not much drama. Usually a 6 to 8 weeker for AFL guys. Lin Jong only missed a week with one during the 2016 AFL finals. They tricked his opponents by taping the other shoulder. His opponents kept smashing into his left shoulder instead of his # right one lol.

Sunday was Melbourne marathon day. My long time buddy Greg had plans of going sub 3. Unfortunately the wheels fell off about 35 kms and he ran a still impressive 3.04 (at 56). I have been working late shifts so haven't caught up with the crew but I know our Legend Johnny D. got through ok. He has now completed all 40 Melbourne marathons. He was looking better in the post race photos than he looked at Base Camp (he suffered some cerebral oedema).

Fingers crossed those fires get contained and Mike can get back to a more normal existance.

Brittle. Mate if I was in your situation I would be out hiking steep rough trails with a hefty pack and my Merrell Trail Gloves on my feet.

I would be doing lots of hip bridges, planks of various types. Deep squats, Bulgarian split squats, stepups, box jumps and shuttle runs (barefoot). Easy barefoot walk jogs on the golf course or the (turf) racetrack. I would keep my fitness up with mountain bike rides on mixed terrain, kayak sessions and maybe some rowing machine.

I probably play by a bit of a different set of rules to most though. Feel free to ignore my advice.

Allen1959 wrote:

Regarding marathon-pace training, Daniels specifically says that it has no physiological benefit beyond an easy-pace run. So, instead of, say, a 15-mile run with 10 at MP, followed by an easy 8-mile run the next day, a better investment would be 10 miles with 5 at LT pace, followed by an easy 13 the next day.

By the way, that is a heckuva week you just posted. Nearly 70 miles if my quick calculation is right. In 45 years of running, I have maybe matched that but a half dozen times. And three of those weeks were pre-season as a walk-on DIII runner senior year (my only collegiate season). Wish I could do that now.

Although I am sometimes frustrated at how slow I am, I should also feel blessed that I can handle a decent mileage at my age. Mileage is all relative, and it should not be the end goal itself.

And you are right about the M pace. I don't think I am gaining any physiological benefit by doing MP. For me, making sure that my legs could handle the race pace when fatigued is the most important objective. As Ed Whitlock used to say, this is not the best training for everyone, and it may not even be the best for myself. But this is what I can handle right now.

M: swimming 1000m.

T: 4 miles / 7 miles.

W: 12 miles. (9th-11th miles @ 7:53-7:47-7:41)

R: 4 miles / 7 miles.

F: 9 miles.

SA: 7 miles.

SU: 20 miles. (last mile @ 7:53)

So it was way cooler (mid 60s) for my long run, but it was pretty windy (15-20mph). I still managed to run my "pick up" a bit faster than last week.

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

First possible "fix" is to back off mileage for a while (i.e., rest, although it hasn't helped at all so far). Second possible fix is to be much more diligent with my stretching. Third possible fix is to go back to using orthotics in my shoes, which seemed to help several years ago, but I got away from using them. Fourth possible fix is to look into various strengthening exercises. Fifth possible fix is to visit a running lab near Boston which specializes in runners' issues. There is always something to try.

I don't know what a "running lab" does, but I think it's a good idea to get someone look at your biomechanical imbalance. If only one side hurts, you probably have imbalance. The question is whether this is something you can adjust through exercises, or you need orthotics to compensate for that. Someone with trained eyes could tell the difference. They could also tell what kind of orthotics (if any) you need, or what kind of stretches and strength exercise can correct the imbalance.

Just my $0.02. Three years ago, my PT spotted my imbalance in a matter of a few minutes. I wish I had seen her earlier.

mo'pak wrote:

Brittle. Mate if I was in your situation I would be out hiking steep rough trails with a hefty pack and my Merrell Trail Gloves on my feet.

I would be doing lots of hip bridges, planks of various types. Deep squats, Bulgarian split squats, stepups, box jumps and shuttle runs (barefoot). Easy barefoot walk jogs on the golf course or the (turf) racetrack. I would keep my fitness up with mountain bike rides on mixed terrain, kayak sessions and maybe some rowing machine.

I appreciate the advice, mate, I really do. :-)

Unfortunately I have many physical limits. Can't do any kind of squats due to bad upper back (degenerative disk condition), bad lower back (slipped disk when young), and bad right knee (arthritis).

Can't ride any kind of bike due to the bad right knee--can't exert pressure when the knee is bent. Fortunately in the act of running, the leg tends to push off the ground when the leg is straight! My friends think it's crazy that I can run but can't ride a bike, but there it is.

I try to avoid jumping around or moving too quick, although I know it's a trendy fitness thing nowadays in all the men's magazines, because sudden movements tend to make me hurt myself someplace. Also I have a bad right hamstring...

What I am trying is increasing my elliptical mileage and doing side planks (you mentioned planks too), per advice I got here yesterday.

This forum, in addition to being a source of inspiration, is a valuable information resource! The experienced people here have pretty much done it all or at least seen it all.

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

Can't ride any kind of bike due to the bad right knee--can't exert pressure when the knee is bent. Fortunately in the act of running, the leg tends to push off the ground when the leg is straight! My friends think it's crazy that I can run but can't ride a bike, but there it is.

I've had all manner of injuries in my ~40 years of running but I've never (knock on wood) had a running-related knee problem. However, my left knee often gets slightly creaky when I'm doing a lot of bike mileage--so far nothing serious, but it definitely gets unhappy from time to time. It appears that it doesn't like exerting force when bent. Currently I still find cycling much easier on my body than running because cycling doesn't bother my chronically bad Achilles tendon at all. However, it has occurred to me that I may someday have to stop cycling because of my knees, even though my knees still work just fine when running.

RF Reader wrote:

[quote]Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

If only one side hurts, you probably have imbalance.

Bad right knee. Bad right hip. Bad right hamstring. Yup, could be an imbalance there.

Pretty much the only thing wrong on my left side is plantar fasciitis in my left foot. To me this is not surprising, because a right-footed person (which I am) will tend to have a stronger left leg, which means that when standing, a right-footed person will tend to lean weight on the left leg. I taught high school for four years, doing a lot of standing on a hard classroom floor, and that's when I developed plantar fasciitis. Hence the plantar fasciitis in the left foot. I'm not saying this reasoning is conclusive, but it makes plausible sense to me.

By the way, if you are right-footed and didn't realize your left leg is probably stronger, here is the rationale: when you are (say) kicking a ball with your right foot, your left leg is doing the work of supporting your entire body.

This differential in leg strength may not be true of everyone, but it is certainly true of me: I can even tell by looking in the mirror.

Something similar can also happen with your arms, if you do a lot of physical labor. For example, if you are right-handed, you may notice your right hand is higher on the rake handle than your left hand. What's going on is, your right hand is taking advantage of greater leverage higher on the handle to control the rake with fine-motor adjustments. Meanwhile your left hand is lower on the handle, doing heavier gross-motor work.

When I was a boy and had lots of raking to do, I would regularly switch the position of my hands on the rake handle. Now at age 59 I have difficulty doing that: it feels awkward to rake left-handed, so to speak, so I never do. (Also I don't rake nearly as much, so I don't have the same need!)

Great running Dave.

Brittle, a quick peek at my own history.

I have poor biomechs with a significant functional leg length discrepency and also a misshapen right foot.

As a young bloke in the horse racing industry I had my feet trodden on and various toes and other bones were probably broken a few times as I often had black and blue swollen tootsies.

In my 40s I broke my foot and was told my running days were over.

In 2013 I stuck my foot through the crust of a gooey mudhole on a wilderness hike in the wild south of Tasmania. My foot plunged down about a metre before jamming to an abrupt stop.

I strapped it up and was ok to continue hiking for the next 2 days.

The whole lower leg was badly bruised and swollen for a couple of weeks.

I returned to running 3 weeks after the incident but after awhile things started going wrong.

My knee would buckle under me if I ran any faster than 5 min. km pace. I observed significant difference in definition and size of my quads. I also couldn't perform a split squat on the bad leg, my knee would buckle and I would fall over.

I continued to bike and did hike/jogs on the steep trails near my home.

I built up the strength in my bad leg with partial single leg squats. I gradually got them to full single leg squats and eventually could perform split squats. The quad definition and size equalised. I was able to do long 2 hour runs over rough terrain. I added in some bounding work to improve the flex in the injured leg as well.

8 months after the hiking incident I competed in the 4 day Bright Alpine Climb for the 28th time. I finished 3d in the O50s with my best performance for at least 5 years.

I continue to battle away with numerous nagging issues. Arthritic feet and toes. A siezed up ankle. Arthritic knee. Ongoing piriformis issues. Dodgy hamstring. Damaged vertebrae. Bad neck (horse kick to the head 40 years ago). Damaged shoulder. Damaged sternum that dislocates often. Most of my fingers have been broken or dislocated so they often hurt. I run with a lopsided gait and I am also just really slow.

If you look at what I typically do in a training week you will see most of these issues are confronted and overcome.

It is a hard task to get through some issues but don't give up on things and assume you can't ever do it just because you can't do it now.